Re: Caucasus Geography.

The Urartians had previously tried expanding west around the Assyrian
NW flank. As I recall, they were trying to get some Neo-Hittite
states to revolt, but the Assyrians defeated them.

Next, they tried expanding eastward into the state of Mannaea in NW
Iran (Tabriz). In one of the most stunning Assyrian campaigns ever,
the king (I'd have to check my notes to see which one), took his army
over the Zagros, overran Mannaea, then headed west to the Urartian
capital at Lake Van. This was over the mountain range that today is
the Turko-Iranian border. One high mountain pass.

The Urartians never knew they were coming. By the time the Assyrians
got to the bottom of the mountian they and their horses were
exhausted. However, the Urartians were so frightened at the sight of
the Assyrian vanguard appearing so unexpectedly in their back yard
that they hid in their cities instead of riding out and charging the
Assyrian vanguard even though, if they would have defeated this
haggard contingent, the rest of the army would have still been
trapped on the mountain trail.

The Assyrians went on to do what they did best - destroy the whole
area. They took their plunder home and made some monumnets boasting
about it in their temples.

--- In cybalist@..., markodegard@... wrote:
> Nice response. It clarifies a few things.
>
> So. We are left with the reality of the Armenian language being in
> Armenia, and the usual mystery about the Cimmerians, both seemingly
> impossible, but there they are.
>
> Armenian and Azeri are 'recent' linguistic arrivals to the region,
at
> least in comparison to the Kartvelian group, which seems to be
about
> as autochthonous as is possible. Azeri, arrayed in Azerbaijan and
> south of the border in Iran (and running up the south side of
Armenia)
> is easy to explain. Armenian is not so easy.
>
> As for the Cimmerians, I'm still looking for a detailed route, a la
> those nice maps you get in bibles showing the possible routes of
the
> Exodus. With my defective geography, my current thinking is the
only
> way Armenian got to its home is up the Aras River, from the east,
> right thru the middle of historic 'greater Azerbaijan'.
>
> What route did the Assyrians take to Urartu? Via present Kurdistan?
>
> Let's see. Kurdistan is mostly SE Turkey, with a knob running into
> Iran (cheek-a-jowl to 'Iranian Azerbaijan', with some bits and
pieces
> in northern Iran and NE Syria. Old Greater Armenia sprawled
westward
> to the north of this, I think.
>
>
>
> --- In cybalist@..., cas111jd@... wrote:
> > If you look at a relief map of the area, you'll see that the west
> end
> > of the Caucasus is very difficult to traverse. I has about no
> coastal
> > plain, nor natural passes. For much of the route it is a massif
that
> > comes directly down to the Black Sea. Image it in the 8th century
> bc:
> > little more than a disjointed collection of wooded mountain
> footpaths
> > stretching almost from the Kerch Strait to the Georgian plain.
> > Imagine tens of thousands of men on horseback making this trip,
> > strung out behind each other mostly in a single column. It would
> take
> > weeks. They and their horses would starve. The mountain peoples
> would
> > finish them off. Look at what the Germans did to Varus in the
> > Teutoberg forest. How about Hannibal crossing the Alps? Imagine
him
> > trying to traverse the Alps for hundreds of miles. He went over
one
> > difficult pass. The Caucasus includes one similar pass in the
> middle.
> > The east end is not easy, either, but it is also basically one
pass
> > around the end and your in Azerbaijan. The Cimmerians knew which
way
> > to go. If they lived on the lower Don or in the Kuban, they would
> > have known that there was no road for them to take around the
west
> > end. They would have known that their horses would starve to
death
> > before they made it out of the forested mountains. I don't know
> about
> > you, but I would ride off into Rumania or Poland before I went
> south.
> >
> > I think Herodotus imagined the west end of the Caucasus as being
> more
> > like Greece and not as mountainous and wooded as it was/is. To
him,
> > the east end may as well as been on the far side of the moon as
far
> > as his knowledge of the geography went.
> >
> > I'm not aware of a single migration or military expedition around
> the
> > west end, so I doubt the Cimmerians did it.
> >
> > --- In cybalist@..., markodegard@... wrote:
> > > --- In cybalist@..., "Glen Gordon" <glengordon01@...> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >[Herodotus] never visited the eastern Black Sea coast and
did
> > not
> > > know how
> > > > >treacherous that could be for any campaign or migration.
> > > >
> > > > Actually, just an interjection concerning the logic of the
above
> > > > statement. I know some things about Europe. I've never gone to
> > > > Europe and so my knowledge of Europe might be fuzzy... but I
> know
> > > > some things about Europe. This is because my knowledge is
> > > second-hand,
> > > > given to me by others who *have* gone to or who live in
Europe.
> > > > So, clearly Herodotus doesn't have to visit the eastern Black
> Sea
> > > > coast to know about that area as long as he has contacts that
> > > > *have* gone there and know what it's about. How can one prove
> > > > that he didn't have contacts?
> > >
> > > I've been to Europe 4 times, but did not get that much
geography
> > out
> > > of the trip. Most of what I know is from books.
> > >
> > > As for Caucasian geography, my knowledge is very fuzzy. I can
> > locate
> > > Armenia, Azerbaijan and Georgia instantly on a world map, but
ask
> > me
> > > about all those other Caucasian places and I go fuzzy. I gather
> > > Chechnya is North Caucasus. Dagestan faces the Caspian north of
> > > Azerbaijan. These places, the peoples living there, and all
those
> > > languages they speak are little known to Americans, and when
you
> do
> > > learn something, you only get confused. It's a jumble.
> > >
> > > The Caucasus themselves run from the Kerch Strait across from
the
> > > Crimea essentially to Baku, in Azerbaijan, on the Caspian,
> > > approximately on a NW to SE slant. The mountains seem to be
quite
> > > steep: you don't normally go up the hill to the top and down,
but
> > > rather, you go around and around. There are nice flat strips
along
> > the
> > > coast of the Black and Caspian Seas but these are easily
> controlled
> > > from the heights just beyond them. In other words, if locals
want
> > to
> > > obstruct your travel, they can don so very easily, and very
> > cheaply.
> > > Hostile armies would have a hard and bloody time getting thru
> here.
> > >
> > > The rivers are obscure to us in the West. The Kuban looks like
a
> > ditch
> > > at the base of the North Caucasus, draining straight into the
> > Black.
> > > Draining to the Caspian in the N. Caucasus are the Kuma and
Terek,
> > two
> > > rivers no one's heard of here in the West. The Rioni is in
> Georgia,
> > > and presumably this is where Jason met Medea. In Azerbaijan, on
> the
> > > other side from Georgia, is the Kur. The big river seems to be
the
> > > Aras/Ara, which flows along the border of Iran and Armenia,
into
> > the
> > > Caspian.
> > >
> > > This is about all I know. I have no idea of what the exact
route
> > the
> > > Cimmerians would have been; does anyone? As for Armenia, the
> > obvious
> > > approach is via the Aras, tho' this looks awfully defensible by
> > local
> > > yokels. I confess to being very vague about exactly what the
> > borders
> > > of Urartu were, or what those of historic Greater Armenia were.
> > >
> > > I have no idea of how variable the terrain is. Some of it is
> > downright
> > > impossible, impassable except to knowledgeable locals on narrow
> > > trails. The rest of it seems to be pretty bad, made almost nice
in
> > > modern times only by the application of lotsa dynamite.
> > >
> > > Can anyone add anything else that would be useful?