Re: [tied] Re: Urartu.

O-: Urartu was already weakened under repeated Assyrian reverses.

I would say suffering constant pressure from all sides, and destined to be
enveloped without any N.Pontic displacements impacting.

O-: just because the Cimmerians were inferior to the Scythians doesn't
O-: mean they could not easily outmatch the Urartians.

There is just no logic in fleeing battle at home to go engage in one
somewhere else, and I am certain Urartian neighbors would have some say in
who passed to set up kingdoms.

O-:. Remember, Herodotus also believed that a tribe in
O-: Russia turned into wolves.

He reported religions with the perspective of the period. Dacians were once
known as the wolf people, and legends there and north..resulted in our
Western corruption of werewolf & vampire..the latter very Zalmoxian.
(Peasant ghost hunters still impale corpses in rural Romania.)

O-:He was also wont to believe the Amazons
O-: still lived - placing them just beyond the Greek horizon in the
O-: Caucasus steppe where nobody could disprove him.

I think you will find he married them off to Scythian troops, and placed
them as a new group north of the Danube..to the west of Scythian holdings.

O-:That is why every historic movement
O-: has been around the east or central pass, which would have been
O-: challenging enough in themselves.

Disagree: there was as much or more traffic into Anatolia across the
Dardanelles. Conceding only that much later, as solid city states emerged
about the Aegean...more threat came from the NE

O-: It seems more realistic for the Scythians to follow the Cimmerians.
O-: Given that they settled for a time in NW Iran and no doubt
O-: Azerbaijan, and eastern approach seems doubly more realistic.

I still think the real damage eastwards was done by Scythians occupying
Cimmeria..and not unusually...called Cimmerians. Elements of both settled
wherever they could avoid resistance, But Scythians had a home to return to;
and Cimmerians were refugees. Cappadochia was a soft enough area
politically to accommodate some Cimmerian remnants.

O-: Yes, I agree the Cimmerians settled in Cappadochia. Other than being
O-: the homeland of the Amazons, however, I'm not sure what legends you
O-: are talking about.

A later resurgence of Taurian or N. Pontic religion, including Artemis
(already well established in Anatolia IMO). The change also shows up in
Greek legend, as the centers of Artemisian worship shifted..
Taurus/Ephesus/Crete/Brauron....to Cappadochia and Rhodes, to the extent
that the Greek preistess (cum Goddess) Iphigenia, Is "transferred" there
(or just visiting) in later Greek versions of her story.

O-: Any lingering Cimmerian power after their legendary
O-: defeat by the Lydians, however, would have been extinguished when the
O-: Medes annexed the area.

The crux of our difference: besides original location, route of refugees,
actions on route, Cimmerian/Scythian name confusion re some actions (maybe
even Phrygia)..I don't think they ever had much power beyond a horde of
refugees. A large remnant group of refugees, after some survival raiding,
finally found an uncontested spot to settle, and were later absorbed by
ongoing regional power struggles.

O-: For the Cimmerians to flee from the Scythians, they could not have
O-: been located any further west than directly north of the Caucasus.
O-: Otherwise, they would have had to sneak around the Scythians' flank
O-: and doubleback southeastwards. Therefore, it seems to me that they
O-: were located on the north Caucasic steppe or fled down the Volga and
O-: across the Kalmyk steppe from some homeland along the middle Volga or
O-: eastwards to the southern Urals.

Only to get where you try to put them from where you try to start them :-)
which I contest. Provide one piece of evidence other than a very few
classical uses of Cimmerian eastward; (when it could mean Scythians of
Cimmeria). Explain why after the movement displacing Cimmerians; Scythians
are crossing the Dniester and raiding Getae and Daci, and pushing them into
conflict with displaced Tyragetae refugees, and then conveniently found
there by Persians and Macedonians?

O-: If they were Thracian-speaking, however, then this language group
O-: would have had a huge territory, which would rather crowd the
O-: Armenians and Iranian pastoralists between the Kazakh steppe and the
O-: Altai mountains. I think we need to give them more room than this.

My buddy (Herodotus) suggests Thracians were the most numerous peoples of
the earth after Indians, and could be dangerous if united..which they
weren't. I don't think in the environment of and about the steppe at the
time..you can draw a linguistic line at all. It was perpetual chaos. I have
no problem with pre Scythian (as well as western) folk intermingled with
scattered Thracians, particularly eastward.

Rex H. McTyeire
Bucharest, Romania