[tied] Re: Urartu.

--- In cybalist@..., "Rex H. McTyeire" <rexbo@...> wrote:

> cas111jd says:
>
> O-: I think the Urartians were still expanding northwards to modern-

day

> O-: Armenia when the Cimmerian avalanche descended upon them and
> O-: destroyed them.
>
> How do we put a Cimmerian avalanche east of the Black sea and

South, when

> the literature suggests west of the Black sea and south? Why would

an Army

> capable of a two pronged and successful assault on Anatolia flee

the Scyths

> in the first place?

Urartu was already weakened uder repeated Assyrian reverses. Besides,
just because the Cimmerians were inferior to the Scythians doesn't
mean they could not easily outmatch the Urartians. The style of
warfare was totally different. The Urartians were no match and had no
answer to Cimmerian cavalry ravaging their homeland.

As for the Cimmerian march around the Black Sea end of the Caucasus?
Improbable IMO. Herodotus' Greco-centric perview of the world was
rather limited. Remember, Herodotus also believed that a tribe in
Russia turned into wolves. He was also wont to believe the Amazons
still lived - placing them just beyond the Greek horizon in the
Caucasus steppe where nobody could disprove him. He never visited the
eastern Black Sea coast and did not know how treacherous that could
be for any campaign or migration. That is why every historic movement
has been around the east or central pass, which would have been
challenging enough in themselves.

It seems more realistic for the Scythians to follow the Cimmerians.
Given that they settled for a time in NW Iran and no doubt
Azerbaijan, and eastern approach seems doubly more realistic.

>
> O-: The Cimmerians were fleeing from the Scythians, who soon

followed.

> O-: Cimmerian remnants survived in Anatolia, where they overthrew

the

> O-: Phrygian kingdom, killed the Assyrian king in battle (Sargon

II?) -

> O-: the only Assyrian warrior-king EVER to die in battle against an
> O-: enemy. The Cimmerians were finally defeated by the Lydians, and
> O-: seemingly disappeared.
>
> I favor a Cimmerian settlement in the Cappadochia area..the legends

and

> history reflect a Post Scythian North Black sea influence precisely

there.

> I think some of these eastern Anatolia Cimmerian references are to

people on

> the move at the same time..from the same place: IE: some eastern

Anatolia

> actions attributed to Cimmerian, were Scythian.

Yes, I agree the Cimmerians settled in Cappadocia. Other than being
the homeland of the Amazons, however, I'm not sure what legends you
are talking about. And, yes, I agree that some Scythians probably
made forays into Anatolia just as the Mongols did later against the
Seljuk Turks. Any lingering Cimmerian power after their legendary
defeat by the Lydians, however, would have been extinguished when the
Medes annexed the area. The Greeks and Romans, it seems, found in the
area a Persian ruling elite, and the place was heavily influenced by
their culture.

>
> O-: Some say the Cimmerians were Thracians. I don't see how this is
> O-: possible. True, the Crimea was Thracian-speaking through the
> O-: classical era, suggesting they could have once ranged further

east on

> O-: the steppes.
>
> The area of the Cimmerian/Scythian displacement would seem to be

simply

> North of the Crimea spreading a bit east and west, perhaps

eastward from

> the east bank of the Dniester. If you factor in later Persian and
> Macedonian contact, per Herodotus, and add Callimachus; the history
> reinforces that area..and the < possibility > that the pre-Scythian
> Cimmerians were linguistically Thracian. I would place Thracian

speakers

> well east of the Crimea pre-Scythian, and not even call them all

Cimmerians.

>

For the Cimmerians to flee from the Scythians, they could not have
been located any further west than directly north of the Caucasus.
Otherwise, they would have had to sneak around the Scythians' flank
and doubleback southeastwards. Therefore, it seems to me that they
were located on the north Caucasic steppe or fled down the Volga and
across the Kalmyk steppe from some homeland along the middle Volga or
eastwards to the southern Urals.

If they were Thracian-speaking, however, then this language group
would have had a huge territory, which would rather crowd the
Armenians and Iranian pastoralists between the Kazakh steppe and the
Altai mountains. I think we need to give them more room than this.

> O-: However, for the Cimmerians to flee from the Scythians,
> O-: who could have only come from the east across the Siberian

steppe,

> O-: would mean the Cimmerians would have been located originally
> O-: somewhere between the north Caucasic steppe and the steppe

between

> O-: the Urals and the Volga (IMO).
>
> I don't follow this: the Scyths apparently crossed the Dniester in

the

> movement that displaced the Cimmerians..pushing them west and

south. Then

> Scyths entered Anatolia via the east bank of he Black sea (IMO and

that of

> Herodotus) Opposing all forces met..but not finding Cimmerians

until well

> west (and south ..Phrygia or Lydia). What direction does a force

move when

> fleeing a force coming from the east (when the Black sea is south)?

Cimmeria

> was essentially the Ukraine minus the Crimea, and I think you are

putting

> them too far east.
>

While some Cimmerians went south, others fled westwards. Archaeology
may be little useful for distinguishing between Cimmerians and
Scythians, since the steppe culture was rather homogenous compared to
the Near East and settled areas of Europe partitioned by mountains
and different ecological zones. In any event, some Cimmerians and
probably Scythians penetrated eastern and central Europe, influencing
Celtic art. I'm not the first to notice the name similarities between
the Cimmerians and the Cimbri of Jutland who were, IMO, originally
Celtic. Could they have even earlier been Cimmerians - first
Celticized and later Germanicized? There was also the Arii tribe the
Romans referenced in modern-day Poland. Could they have once been
Iranians?

> O-: After the destruction of Assyria, however, the Scythians,

realizing

> O-: that they were in danger of defeat by the Medes, retreating

back into

> O-: the steppes.
>
> I see them rather as successfully raiding, and as they had already

compiled

> more than they could carry..they simply went home :-).
>
> Rex H. McTyeire
> Bucharest, Romania

Okay, they did a cost-benefit analysis and determined that the
rewards of further plundering did not justify the risks against the
Medes and Persians.

In any event, it was after the Medes moved into this vacuum at the
start of the 6th century BC we find 'Armenia'. They seemed to have
occupied the region rather unopposed all the way to the river Halys.
With their Scythian overlords departing, the Armenians and the
Cappadocians had little choice but to make peace and accept a pax
Medea/Persae.