Re: [tied] Re: Urartu.

cas111jd says:

O-: I think the Urartians were still expanding northwards to modern-day
O-: Armenia when the Cimmerian avalanche descended upon them and
O-: destroyed them.

How do we put a Cimmerian avalanche east of the Black sea and South, when
the literature suggests west of the Black sea and south? Why would an Army
capable of a two pronged and successful assault on Anatolia flee the Scyths
in the first place?

O-: The Cimmerians were fleeing from the Scythians, who soon followed.
O-: Cimmerian remnants survived in Anatolia, where they overthrew the
O-: Phrygian kingdom, killed the Assyrian king in battle (Sargon II?) -
O-: the only Assyrian warrior-king EVER to die in battle against an
O-: enemy. The Cimmerians were finally defeated by the Lydians, and
O-: seemingly disappeared.

I favor a Cimmerian settlement in the Cappadochia area..the legends and
history reflect a Post Scythian North Black sea influence precisely there.
I think some of these eastern Anatolia Cimmerian references are to people on
the move at the same time..from the same place: IE: some eastern Anatolia
actions attributed to Cimmerian, were Scythian.

O-: Some say the Cimmerians were Thracians. I don't see how this is
O-: possible. True, the Crimea was Thracian-speaking through the
O-: classical era, suggesting they could have once ranged further east on
O-: the steppes.

The area of the Cimmerian/Scythian displacement would seem to be simply
North of the Crimea spreading a bit east and west, perhaps eastward from
the east bank of the Dniester. If you factor in later Persian and
Macedonian contact, per Herodotus, and add Callimachus; the history
reinforces that area..and the < possibility > that the pre-Scythian
Cimmerians were linguistically Thracian. I would place Thracian speakers
well east of the Crimea pre-Scythian, and not even call them all Cimmerians.

O-: However, for the Cimmerians to flee from the Scythians,
O-: who could have only come from the east across the Siberian steppe,
O-: would mean the Cimmerians would have been located originally
O-: somewhere between the north Caucasic steppe and the steppe between
O-: the Urals and the Volga (IMO).

I don't follow this: the Scyths apparently crossed the Dniester in the
movement that displaced the Cimmerians..pushing them west and south. Then
Scyths entered Anatolia via the east bank of he Black sea (IMO and that of
Herodotus) Opposing all forces met..but not finding Cimmerians until well
west (and south ..Phrygia or Lydia). What direction does a force move when
fleeing a force coming from the east (when the Black sea is south)? Cimmeria
was essentially the Ukraine minus the Crimea, and I think you are putting
them too far east.

O-: After the destruction of Assyria, however, the Scythians, realizing
O-: that they were in danger of defeat by the Medes, retreating back into
O-: the steppes.

I see them rather as successfully raiding, and as they had already compiled
more than they could carry..they simply went home :-).

Rex H. McTyeire
Bucharest, Romania