Re: [tied] Satem shift

From: Piotr Gasiorowski
Message: 8022
Date: 2001-07-20

Notice that no single satem language has labiovelars, whereas they all preserve *k^w _and_ *kw (*kw and *qw?) clusters. This looks like a shared innovation rather than strange coincidence, and suggests a very early loss of labialisation as a feature of dorsal stop phonemes, most likely contemporal with the satem shift proper. With *k^/*kW/*k redefined as *k/*kW/*q we get this:
 
PIE *k > Satem *k^
PIE *kW > Satem *k
PIE *q > Satem k
 
-- with the fronting of the whole *k/*q subsystem, but not of *kW, which becomes delabialised and merges with reflexes of old uvular *q. The merger is irreversible, as speakers have no means of knowing which *k comes from older *kW. Albanian may be an exception (it's imaginable that in Albanian *q wasn't fronted until rather late and thus escaped the palatalisations that affected *k < *kW), but even in Albanian there is no trace of retained labialisation. At best we'd have a three-way system like *k^/*k/*q, and it's hard to imagine how it could have "devolved" back into anything centum-like.
 
The satem group is very sharply defined (there are no satem developments outside it), which suggests a late fast-spreading innovation rather than a dialectal feature in PIE times. In the latter case we would expect a "grey zone" between satem and centum areas, with fractures partly obliterating the [+/- satem] boundary. The facts that Tocharian and Greek were unaffected (despite the numerous affinities between Greek and Indo-Iranian and Armenian), and that there is a slight south-to-north cline with regard to the thoroughness of the change _within_ the Satemic group, suggest that satemisation was initiated somewhere in the southern part of the Pontic area and diffused northwards at a time when Proto-Tocharian and Proto-Hellenic occupied sufficiently peripheral locations east and west of the core area. The optimal timing, in my opinion, would be after 3000 BC but well before 2000 BC.
 
Piotr
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Glen Gordon
To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, July 20, 2001 8:26 PM
Subject: [tied] Satem shift

Piotr:
>[...] there is no indication of a temporal gap between those >processes,
>which means that at a certain point the whole system of >phonological
>contrasts was redefined.

But is it not possible that the satem shift happened well
*before* 4000 BCE? I now think of IE as a puddle of ever-converging
and diverging dialects. The "split" is, of course, nothing more
than the state of a part of this dialectal muddle as it stood
approximately 4000 BCE (that is, ignoring the possibility for
surrounding dialect spin-offs from Middle IE, Old IE or other
earlier stages of IE, in order to prevent our brains from exploding).

Piotr spoke earlier of uvularisation and a reinterpretation of
*k^/*k/*kW as *k/*q/*kW to resolve typological problems in IE. If
so, the satem dialect area would have simply "fronted" *k/*q,
forming *k^/*k. A one-step process rather than a messy, two-step
palatalisation + delabialisation event.

Plus, I can't see why this process must necessarily occur *after* the
final fracturing of IE since we all should know by now that IE was
never "unified" as it is traditionally stated. IE would have always
been an area of dialects, no matter how far back in time we go.

Thoughts?