From: João S. Lopes Filho
Message: 7880
Date: 2001-07-14
----- Original Message -----
From: <cas111jd@...>
To: <cybalist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2001 2:27 AM
Subject: [tied] Re: Neptune, Poseidon, Danu, etc.
> Good points all, Mr. Caws.
>
> I find it intriguing that so many deities and heroes became
> identified with their arch-enemy, the 'world serpent' in its various
> forms, to an extent that they were even depicted as it, with
> characters such as Cadmus turning into one as well as slaying one. I
> don't know how to explain it. It must be some trophy thing.
>
> The 'world serpent' is, IMO, a central if not THE central aspect of
> early religion. The similarities from India to Britain are striking.
>
> As per Athena, a few interesting comments: I want to see her as
> related to Valkyries and maybe some Celtic war goddesses, but this is
> a bit convoluted. Some see her as androgynous, and for good reason,
> IMO. We should note in respect to her supporting role of the dragon
> slayer that the Hittites had, in one version, an Astarte-like goddess
> supporting the thunder god and a hero to slay Illuyankas. Astarte/
> Ishtar, etc., of course was identified by the Greeks with Aphrodite,
> but as a war goddess she still overlapped in functions with Athena.
>
> I think the Anatolian 'Great Mother' goddess known to the Greco-
> Romans as Cybele also had this androgynous character as well as
> mulitple functions. Some coins and objects from Cyprus even depicted
> Aphrodite with a beard. Then there was Agdistis of Phrygia, who was
> some sort of androgynous/ bisexual/ hermaphrodite thing that drove
> Attis crazy and castrate himself (Phrygian version).
>
> So this is where it gets peculiar: Athena is associated with a
> certain Atthis, who was the mother of Erichthonius in one myth (IAW
> Apollodorus). This name recalls the name of Attis as well as
> Atargatis, who in Syria was 'the Divine Ata'.
>
> As Attis mean 'lord', might not Atthis mean 'lady'? Even in the
> Mycenaean Age she was called Atana Potnia ('Athena the Great Lady').
> There was also Atargatis in Syria, a late version of Ishtar/Astarte,
> who was 'the Divine Ata'.
>
> This lord and lady relationship is paralleled in Norse mythology by
> Frey and Freya ('lord' and 'lady'), who were not Aesir, but adopted
> into Asgard from the Vanir deities.
>
> Freya's similarities with the southern goddesses are also weird to
> explain. First was her human lover Otter (Attis?) whom she turned
> into a boar (the same animal that killed Attis AND Adonis (same dying-
> and-resurrection savior-god and myth). More weird, she had a chariot
> pulled by cats. CATS!? Where'd she get that? Cybele had a chariot
> pulled by lions - that's where!
>
> How, when and why these aspects of the Near Eastern 'great goddess'
> made it to Scandinavia and managed to survive as the Vanir goddess
> Freya I don't know. My speculation is that she was taken up into the
> Balkans with the Neolithic farmers before the place was overrun by
> the IE kurgan and Battle-Axe peoples. These Neolithic farmers must
> have pervaded the Danubian/Linear Ware culture of the upper Danube
> and adjacent areas. Their gods and goddesses the proto-Scandinavians
> recognized as the Vanir, and they kept a few that they liked.
>
> No lions in northern Europe - just cats I guess (should by lynx,
> though)
>
>
>
> --- In cybalist@..., MrCaws@... wrote:
> > --- In cybalist@..., cas111jd@... wrote:
> > > The Greek gods and goddesses had enough attributes, myths, and so
> > on
> > > to relate them to just about anyone you want.
> > > It seems to me, though, that Eurynome has the closest connection
> to
> > > the Near Eastern 'cosmic ocean' goddess and her serpentine
> consort.
> > > According to one source, Hera was the parthenogenic mother of
> > Typhon,
> > > which would also associate her with this Near Eastern role. As
> has
> > > been already noted, Athena was connected with the serpent-god,
> but
> > > this also works as its slayer - first supporting Zeus against
> > Typhon
> > > and then Perseus against the snake-haired Medusa.
> >
> > I think you are right about Eurynome. However, I think the Serpent
> > consort of Eurynome may differ from Poseidon or Yam or Enki in that
> > he was disposed of early on, as per Ouranos via Kronos or Mummu via
> > Enki, while the latter deities were all active in their respective
> > pantheons. I'll get to the Athena stuff in a bit.
> >
> >
> > > PS: Cadmus and Apollo were both serpent slayers - probably
> versions
> > > of the same god and myth, IMO. Strangely, Apollo's image was as a
> > > dragon in his temple on Delos. This serpent/dragon slayer having
> > this
> > > beast as his totemic animal is also found quite commonly in the
> IE
> > > religions, with clans adorning their coats of arms with it,
> > claiming
> > > descent from a dragon slayer. The Welsh have one on their
> national
> > > flag. The Vikings carved them on their ships, Anglo-Saxons
> painted
> > > them on their shields.
> > > The aegis of Zeus and Athena had Medusa's head, which was
> probably
> > > derived from Medusa as a dragon/serpent. The aegis was emblematic
> > of
> > > storms, with Athena and Zeus both storm deities.
> >
> > Both Apollo and Athena wore the emblems of defeated monsters,
> Python
> > and Medusa respectiveley. Both of these incidents involve
> a "cultural
> > hero" type figure-Apollo's directly, and Athena via Perseus.
> > I think that the archetypal "cultural hero" role usually involves
> a
> > triumph over a dragon or related monster. . Apollo plays the good
> > Freudian hero, killing the evil serpent that attacked his mother in
> > some versions of the story. This version seems to go back to an old
> > Canaanite myth where Yam, in serpent form, attacked Laton(Leto).
> > The story of Perseus and the Medusa also fits this archetypal hero
> > tale exceedingly well, with a few twists. Now, the wicked monster
> > figure is separated from the evil father. And it is Athena who ends
> > up in possession of Medusa's head. I would argue that Athena is
> > definetly a sort of cultural hero, but that gender constructions
> > among other things mandated her role as an indirect agent in the
> > story.
> > I think that both of these stories involve a theme of succession
> as
> > well. The Freudian hero tale is a story of the young establishing
> > dominance over their parent-figures.
> > Perhaps Athena's role in defeating Medusa represents a conquest of
> a
> > goddess that is now playing the role of a monster. Some
> mythologists
> > think that most demons are old gods that have been demonized by
> > proponents of newer faiths or by a populace that now views the
> > divinity as irrelevent or frightening. Thus, the emblem of the
> Medusa
> > would be also a symbol demonstrating Athena's dominance over an old
> > goddess(Or older version of herself) that still haunted the mythic
> > consciousness of the area.
> > Likewise, Apollo's image as a dragon could represent his
> succession
> > over the old dragon prophet, Python. As Pythian Apollo, he plays
> the
> > role of the dragon he killed.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > --- In cybalist@..., "João S. Lopes Filho" <jodan99@...> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: <MrCaws@...>
> > > > To: <cybalist@...>
> > > > Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2001 4:50 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: [tied] Neptune, Poseidon, Danu, etc.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > 1: I agree, but is this necessarily just PIE? Sumerian Lord of
> > > > > Underground waters Enki is pretty old,
> > > > > 2: So a grafting on of an IE deity to a non-IE or at least
> > > different
> > > > > IE Lord of Waters perhaps?
> > > >
> > > > Like all main great Greek gods, Poseidon is a very complex
> deity.
> > > It's hard
> > > > to distinguish IE and non-IE traits. There's a large amount of
> > > > superpositions.
> > > >
> > > > > 4:Enki was sometimes depicted as a serpent, other times as a
> > > fish. He
> > > > > seemed to be at the head of the Sumerian pantheon at one point
> > (In
> > > my
> > > > > opinion, anyway). Heads of the pantheon are often consorts of
> > the
> > > > > goddess and often have serpent attributes.
> > > > > I am interested in the Hephaistos comparison-What traits do
> you
> > > see
> > > > > in common?
> > > >
> > > > I think Hephaistos had a role as a sort of consort of Athena
> (at
> > > least in
> > > > Athens). His role of a consort of the Great Goddess, but he
> > bother
> > > her and
> > > > she cast him below. This myth has many counterparts across
> Greece
> > > and
> > > > Western Asia. I think
> > > > it's the main source of legends of quarrels between a god and
> > > goddess (the
> > > > god is allways defeated) : Poseidon x Hera in Argos; Poseidon x
> > > Athena in
> > > > Athens. I'd also include some interesting couples:
> > > > Ares (father of the Kadmus serpent) and Aphrodite in Thebas.
> > > > Kekrops/Erikhthonios and Athenas in Athens (Hephaistos is
> > > considered the
> > > > father of snake-bodied Erikhthonios)
> > > > Python and Leto in Delphi and Delos.
> > > > Eden's Snake and Eva.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > 5. The consort of the goddess is often a Lord of the
> Wilderness
> > > > > figure such as this. I definetly think there are reasons to
> > > connect
> > > > > Poseidon to this archetype/role as well. I wonder if this
> > > reflects an
> > > > > earlier role he played in old Mediterranean/Near Eastern myth?
> > > > > 6.Hmmm. I will have to get back to you on that one too.
> > > >
> > > > Yes, the Lord of Wilderness was the Goddess's consort in Old
> > > European myths.
> > > > I'd like to add to the trais of Poseidon his relation to
> Ugaritic
> > > Yam, the
> > > > Serpentlike God of Sea. His consort was the beautiful Athtart
> (I
> > > think she's
> > > > the source of Greek Amphitrite)
> > > >
> > > > > Mr. Caws
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>