Re: [tied] W's in Swedish??

--- In cybalist@..., Miguel Carrasquer Vidal <mcv@...> wrote:

> On Sun, 17 Jun 2001 08:57:48 +0100, "petegray"
> <petegray@...> wrote:
>
> >The dialect map of uvular /r/ versus trilled /r/ is quite complex

(and even

> >more so when you consider uvular fricative /r/). I give you two
> >descriptions:
> >
> >(a) very simply, uvular /r/ is found in a continuous area of

Europe from

> >France up to Germany and Denmark (but not in Holland).
>
> Not in Holland?
>
> >(b) in more detail, uvular /r/ is:
> >
> > not usual in Spain, Italy, mid-south & East Switzerland, Austria,

Bavaria,

> >and beyond the eastern German border; Norway, Sweden, Holland,

North

> >Flanders.
> >
> >generally used in France (outside the south-west), other parts of

Belgium,

> >the area around The Hague,
>
> It's rather more widespread than that. Uvular r is pretty much the
> standard pronunciation in the Netherlands and has been since at

least

> the 1950's. It is used in practically all major cities, except (to

my

> knowledge) Amsterdam (apical rolled/tapped /r/) and perhaps

Rotterdam

> and Leiden (where am English-style continuant apical or

retroflex /R/

> is common, besides the uvular varieties).
>
>
> =======================
> Miguel Carrasquer Vidal
> mcv@...

That's another question that came into my mind: Does American English
retroflex r come from Dutch? I had a scenario that went like this:
the English conquer Nieuw Amsterdam; diglossia with a low-status
Dutch-influenced English with retroflex r, high-status English
without; American revolution, low- and high-status are reversed in
order to create a distance to the "old order" (Sinter Klaas -> Santa
Claus, etc), retroflex r becomes a "shibboleth" between British and
American English; New York becomes port of entry for most immigrants
who stay a generation in New York, New Yorkese becomes standard
American with retroflex r's; East and South European immigration
changes retroflex r's in New York to present "toity twee"
pronounciation.

Torsten