Re: [tied] Basileus

From: petegray
Message: 7532
Date: 2001-06-10

Rarely do I have the temerity to disagree with Piotr, but I must on two
counts here.

> underlying *gWm-ti- is implied by such forms as Latin -venti-on-

Surely Latin -vention- is actually vent-ion as in supine/ppp stem + the very
productive morph -ion-, which forms nouns from verbs, and is normally
attached to the ppp/spine stem. (There are a very few words with -ion- on
the bare stem, eg pug-ion-, reg-ion-, opin-ion-. The suffix -ion- is not to
be confused with the suffix -io/-ia which gives 1st and 2nd declension
words).

> The general meaning 'walk, go, proceed' of Greek baino: (< *gWm-je-) is >
apparently a late extension of a more concrete PIE meaning ('come,
> approach'), implying movement towards the speaker

I'd like to dispute this, too. In Latin the meaning is general, without
implication of movement toward the speaker; you yourself allow that is also
the case in Greek; in Sanskrit it can mean "go away" in the RV and later
literature, and even "send away"; (meanings such as "go to" are indicated
by the presence of an acc, loc, or dat.). Where is the evidence that its
PIE meaning implied movement toward the speaker?

So your etymology still has some problems, I think.

Peter

Piotr's whole post:
Some second thoughts: an underlying *gWm-ti- is implied by such forms as
Latin -venti-on- (as in <conventio:> 'assembly' or <inventio:> 'coming upon,
invention') or German Zukunft 'future' (= 'time to come', cf. OHG kumft
'motion', ON samkund 'gathering', etc.) even if their relation to PIE
*gWmtis is indirect. The general meaning 'walk, go, proceed' of Greek baino:
(< *gWm-je-) is apparently a late extension of a more concrete PIE meaning
('come, approach'), implying movement towards the speaker. If this older
meaning were assumed for *gWasi-la:wos, perhaps the correct interpretation
would be 'he that musters the lâos' or 'he that makes the lâos gather'. As
to Glen's objection that the literal translation of the compound looks
clumsy in English, that's often the case with exocentric (bahuvri:hi)
compounds which sound less natural to an Anglophone ear than endocentric.

Piotr


----- Original Message -----
From: Piotr Gasiorowski
To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2001 9:10 PM
Subject: Re: [tied] Basileus


*gWm-ti-s 'motion' from *gWem- 'walk, move' is a bona fide PIE word. Apart
from Gk. basis we have Skt. gati- 'motion, path, progress'. Lith. gimti,
Latv. dzimt 'to be born' (< 'to come') at the very least shows the same
formative principle, since Baltic and Slavic infinitives derive from
deverbal nouns in *-ti-.

(BTW, as regards your other predictions, the expected but unattested Latin
form would actually be truncated *vens/*ventis parallel to mens, mors <
*mn-ti-s, *mr-ti-s. In Slavic we would get *gIm-tI- > *z^e~tI, also
unattested. The Proto-Celtic reflex would be *-an-, not *-in-)

Piotr



----- Original Message -----
From: Joăo S. Lopes Filho
To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2001 3:16 PM
Subject: Re: [tied] Basileus


If *gWmti- had cognates in other IE languages, we must expect
Latin *Venti-
Germanic *Kundi-, *Kunthi-
Celtic *Binti-
Indo-iranian *Gati-
Slavic *Ge,ti-
Baltic *Gimti-