Re: [tied] Fjall, pilis, polis...

From: Piotr Gasiorowski
Message: 7526
Date: 2001-06-10

There's nothing American about the English noun <fill>, and the meaning is not exactly "rampart" -- in civil engineering it is "material for filling", such as earth or gravel. I don't know the etymology of <pylimas>, but it doesn't look as if it could be derived from *plh1- in any regular fashion. The formula <su-pilti pili> only shows a synchronic folk-etymological connection between the roots in question and does not recur in Indic or Greek. The making of earthwork fortifications is more usually expressed with the PIE root *dHeig^H-.
 
There are enough cognates of *polje to demonstrate that the normal Slavic meaning is derived from "flat, open" and not connected with the existence of a political centre. *polje means 'field, (arable) land', open terrain' etc., but never 'district, administrative unit' or 'territory occupied by a community'.
 
If you use your imagination, any two meanings can be "connected" with a chain of associations. But the connection may be regarded as valid only if the chain is not completely arbitrary, i.e. if there is good evidence for each of its links.
 
Piotr
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Tomas Baranauskas
To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2001 12:15 AM
Subject: Re: [tied] Fjall, pilis, polis...

 
>>The prototype of Gk. polis, Lith, pilis, Skt. pu:r is usually reconstructed as *p(o)lh1-(i-) 'hill-fort, citadel'. The quality of the laryngeal is not quite certain, and there are subtle internal difficulties (Greek and Lithuanian have an i-stem as opposed to the Indic root noun, Greek has a mysterious dialectal variant with initial <pt->). It is hard to decide if this word can be related to *pelh1- and *polh1-u- (as "a place for many people"?).
 
I'd rather say: "as a place, surronded by ramparts" (rampart - Lith. pylimas, Amer. Eng. fill). Rampart is made of ground, filled up with ground. It is well known expression in Lithuanian folklore "su-pilti pili:". The hill-forts (piliakalniai) are traditionally regarded as artificial hills (though only ramparts are artificial in reality). The territorial community with a centre in such pilis, polis - "a place, surronded by ramparts" - is defined naturraly by the same name - Greek polis may testify this. And thus pilis/polis may easily acquire meaning of wide, open territory, occupied by a certain community (Slavic *polje). Thus I think there is no difference between the origin of these roots:
 
>>*pelh1- 'fill'. The best-known derivatives, apart from various verb stems, are *plh1-no- 'full' and *polh1-u- 'much, many'. There are also numerous more complex formations based on this root.
 
>>*pelh2- 'flat, open'. Lots of derivatives, several subsenses, *pélh2-tu- 'open field' (Eng. field, German feld), *plh2-no- 'flat' (Lat. pla:nus), *polh2-jo- (Slavic *polje), *plh2-m-ah2- 'palm (of one's hand)'.
 
"A place, surronded by ramparts" also may explain relation between hill and the mentioned root, as the castles, fortifications used to be aranged on hills.
 
 
Regards
 


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