Odp: [tied] Re: Croatians and the Carpathians

The Carpathians cover a huge area and great parts of it are full of Slavs at present (though we share the mountains with other linguistic groups), and have been so since about the 6th century. The individual ranges have individual names (ofter demonstrably borrowed from non-Slavic sources, though not Germanic ones, as far as I know) and maybe the Slavs simply didn't need a general term for "the Carpathians" until rather late. I have problems accepting *xarfaD- as the source of *xrvat- for formal reasons in the first place. Of course, some formal irregularity can be tolerated if "the second leg" of the reconstruction is very strong (like the compelling semantic agreement between Germanic *biskop- and Romance *episcopum). But here it is not. You only guess that there might have been an old Slavic name for the Carpathians that might have served as the basis for the formation of "Hrvat". But since there is no independent attestation of *xrvaty as 'the Carpathians', the reasoning becomes circular and the etymology has no strong points.

Piotr

----- Original Message -----

From: tgpedersen@...

To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2001 9:28 AM

Subject: [tied] Re: Croatians and the Carpathians

> ----- Original Message ----- > From: tgpedersen@... > To: cybalist@... > Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2001 9:09 AM > Subject: [tied] Re: Croatians and the Carpathians > > > How about this: > Originally "hrvatski jazyk (jezyk, ezyk?)" 'Carpathian language'. > Then (after "Karpaty" is adopted as the Slavic name of the > mountains), a back-formation "Hrvat" 'Croat' is made from the now > opaque "hrvatski". > > Torsten --- In cybalist@..., "Piotr Gasiorowski" <gpiotr@...> wrote: > Not impossible as a scenario, but another basic problem with deriving "Hrvat" or "hrvatski" from a hypothetical Slavic term for the Carpathians (borrowed from some local Germani) is that such a term (**xrvaty?) doesn't exists anywhere. > > Piotr > > Except perhaps exactly for "Hrvat"? As I read your reply, you're saying that *xrvat- is not used in any Slavic language to designate the Carpathian mountains. But wasn't "Karpaty" (as you explained) a relatively recent loan (from some non-Grimm-shifting language, possibly Roumanian)? Aren't the Carpathians today in a Slav-depleted (excuse the term) region? (It is also Germanic-depleted, and all Germanic languages have given up *xarfaD-). Wouldn't it have been possible for Slavs to have had a *xrvaty for the Carpathians before having loaned "Karpaty"?