Re: [tied] Re: Albanian connection

From: Piotr Gasiorowski
Message: 6292
Date: 2001-03-02

I have to correct what I said about <(h)yll>. The opinion that it derives from PIE *sh2ul- (or rather *sh2u:l- to get the right vowel quality) was cautiously supported by the great Albanologist Eric Hamp in an article written some time ago, which is why I accepted it, but there are problems with it. The initial *sh2- should have been reduced to *s-, but the expected Albanian reflex of that is <gj->. (Note by the way how strange-looking the regular Albanian developments are. For example, PIE supnos 'sleep' > gjumë).
 
In order to obtain <h-> or zero (there is some dialectal variation in Albanian in this respect) one would need to assume a special (and hard-to-verify) development of the rare cluster *sh2- (perhaps an early merger with *sk-, which does yield Albanian <h->) or irregular loss of s- in the onset (very suspect). Then, there are semantic difficulties (the semantic shift 'sun' > 'star' via a generalised meaning like 'light in the sky' is not impossible but too ad hoc to be accepted without reservations).
 
However, the most problematic aspect of this etymology is that the Albanian "sun" word <diell> is regularly descended from a PIE form -- in fact, it derives from *sh2wel- (the full-grade variant of *sh2ul-) > *swel- > diell. Believe it or not, PIE *sw- is regularly reflected as <d-> in Albanian -- e.g. *sworg-eje-ti > dergjet 'lies ill'. The diphthong <ie> is the regular development of stressed *e before a sonorant, not a contraction of *-ihy- or *-ihe-. It looks, then, as if the "sun" root had already been taken. (As for your question whether <diell> survives outside Albanian, nearly all words for the sun in the various IE languages -- sun, Sonne, so:l, soleil, su:rya-, he:lios, haul, saule:, slUnIce, etc. -- are derived from the same protoword as <diell>.)
 
For these reasons alternative etymologies of <yll> must be considered. One often-mentioned possibility is that it derives from the PIE root *h1eus- 'burn, singe', found in Latin (u:ro: < *eus-o:, u:stor 'burner of corpses'), Germanic (OE ysle < us-l-j-o:n- 'glowing ashes', ON ysja 'fire'), Greek (heuo: < *euho: < *eus-o:) and Old Indic (os.ati 'singe' < *eus-e-ti). The "ashes" word represented by the Germanic derivative *us-l-i- would work rather well as the prototype of <yll>. The semantics (stars = "glowing embers") is perhaps parallelled by the PIE "star" word (*h2ste:r) itself -- see the Cybalist discussion of this word a few months ago.
 
[A tantalising thought for Glen and others: Etruscan usil 'sun' could have a rather straightforward (non-metathetic) connection with an IE root: *h1us-el-, *h1eus-elo- 'the scorcher'? If no-one buys it, I won't insist :)]
 
Piotr
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Alvin Ekmekciu
To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2001 6:14 PM
Subject: [tied] Re: Albanian connection

As what regards the deriving of <Hyll> from <Diell>,<Di-hell>, <Di-hyll> (Sun) it is not the first time I hear that suggestion but what makes me wonder is much a philosofical question:

How did these anscient people know that the stars were nothing more but Suns? Keeping in mind that this knowledge is very recent and in Middle Ages nobody would dare to think it.

And another thing I wonder about is:
Has <hyll> or <dihell> survived in any other language but Albanian ??