Re: [tied] Lemnos stele

From: Miguel Carrasquer Vidal
Message: 5678
Date: 2001-01-21

I forgot to send this. If anyone still cares, here it is...

On Thu, 18 Jan 2001 04:43:27 , "Glen Gordon"
<glengordon01@...> wrote:

>As I say, your /mara-/="five" theory
>abounds with obvious stupidity and the following criticisms show this
>logical impairment:
> - opposite of expected Etruscan number order
> (We find Etruscan /ci zathrum/ "23" not */zathrum ci/)

This is correct, but Lemnian is not Etruscan, just very close to it.
We can expect differences like this, like we can expect them between
Early Modern English ("three and twenty") and Contemporary English
("twenty three").

> - impossible sound correspondances
> ([kH] => [r]??? mach == mara-????)

The impossible sound correspondence is /w/ ~ /r/.

As I said, in Etr. <mach>, the <-ch> can only be secondary, in view of
the derivative <muvalch> "50".

A possible reconstruction would be *mawa- (cf. Luwian <mawwa>, <muwa>
"4"), where the form for "50" could represent an ablaut grade
(Nullstufe?) *mwá-l(a)-kh(w)- > muvalch [genitive -l(a) + "collective"

In the simple numeral *máwa, we have to assume *máwa > *máa, and
further addition of, from the counting formula, -kh "and" (cf. PIE
*pen-kwe). That leaves <-ra> in Lemn. <mara> (< *maa-ra < *mawa-ra)
unexplained. The most straightforward solution would be the Etruscan
plural suffix *-ra (> Etr. -r). Cf. *-es in PIE *trei-es and
*kwetwor-es. So, if we ever find the Lemnian for "3", I anticipate it
would be <kira>.

[BTW, on the development /áwa/ > /á(a)/, I'd like to ask Piotr if he
can confirm that there is indeed (as I think I've noticed) a similar
development in Modern Polish (e.g. jechal/am = [jEXawam] ~ [jEXáam]).]

> - impossible semantics when translated in context
> (/aviz/ repeated twice in same phrase!!?)

This is more a question of style than of grammar. "(of) forty years
and (of) five years" is completely equivalent to "(of) forty and (of)
five years", except that, in a not yet mathematized world, the former
is indeed the more natural way of expressing oneself ("forty **what**
and five years?")

Miguel Carrasquer Vidal