Re: etruscan

From: Torsten Pedersen
Message: 5277
Date: 2001-01-03

--- In, "Piotr Gasiorowski" <gpiotr@...> wrote:
> I've seen this thursa = turs-eno- equation somewhere, possibly in
one of Theo Venneman's papers. It does seem to fit phonetically, the
question is only how plausible it is in other respects. The Germani
did absorb some cultural influence radiating from Northern Italy --
one very clear example is the Runic script, which derives from "North
Etruscan" alphabets (used also by non-Tyrrhenian peoples such as the
> These placename resemblances are most likely coincidental, given
that Germanic *-ind-/*-and-/*-und- can be etymologised using normal
IE resources (< *-(e/o)nt-ó-, as in present participles).
> Piotr

Unfortunately, even if the endings can be etymologized as Germanic,
the root of the words can't, except possibly *borg- in Borgund, if
equal to the usual "castle, river bank, mountain" root, as one recent
IE root dictionary claims (I forgot the name again, but this one I
know where to find, if you're interested). But this root itself
supposedly has non-IE provenance.
I have also seen Venneman's equation somewhere but I disagree about
the route of the borrowing. In order to get into contact with other
peoples you must have some kind of business there. The most likely is
trade, in war you are not so interested in being understood by the
other side. In order to trade you must take stuff with you, the more
the better. Italy and the rest of Europe is divided by the Alps. If
you want to take stuff between the Mediterranean and the North
Sea/the Baltic, the safe way is up the Po, up the Ticino, across the
St. Gotthard and down the Rhine. But the St. Gotthard pass was opened
only in approx 1250. After that Switzerland and the Netherlands
became wealthy enough to be independent, at the expense of the
Northern French market towns, on the overland route from the Rhone.
This may be the route Venneman, being Dutch, imagines. The
alternative, crossing the Brenner pass takes you into the basin of
the Danube, and you don't want to be there if you are going to the
Northern Seas.
The important route then, I believe, was the Russian rivers. This
would take you directly from the Baltic to Lemnos and Troy. The
important thing was being able to drag your ship from one river
system to the next. They did some experiments here with Viking-age
type ships (loading capacity approx. 30 tons). It seems to work with
4 horses and rollers. Even at the height of Dutch power, the St
Gotthard pass was a mule track (Saumpfad), which must have been a
bottleneck for the trade.

BTW, talking of *tr(s)- and Tyrrhenians (not Thyrrenians, the h
reflecting the *s), the self-designation of the Lycians
was "trmmeli". The word for "tower", Lat. turris, Ge. Turm, Da.
is, I believe, of Anatolian origin. And how about "Troy" itself?
I can't figure it out, but it is a lot of *tr-'s in one area.

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Torsten Pedersen
> To:
> Sent: Saturday, December 30, 2000 12:10 PM
> Subject: [tied] Re: etruscan
> I have a question here regarding Etruscan/Lemnian:
> Is ON thursa "troll" related to the "tyrsenoi"? Phonetically, it
> seems to fit. Other "minor supernatural beings" have been
> tentatively´identified with pre-IE peoples.
> As is well-known, there is number of place-names
> in Greece, ending in -inthos, -unthos, -ssos, which are
> considered Pre-Greek, possibly Anatolian. Subtract ending
> and we get -inth-, -unth-, -ss-.
> Certain place names in Denmark,
> mostly of islands and peninsulas, are
> considered pre-IE, at least pre-Germanic.
> Old Name Present Name
> Lavind Langeland
> Borgund Born-holm
> Ekund Jegind-ø
> Selund Sjælland (Zealand)
> Thund Thun-ø
> Sams Sams-ø
> Mors id.
> Mols id.
> Als id.
> So we have here endings -ind, -und, -s. Coincidence?
> Amber has been found in Bronze Age shipwrecks in the
> so you can't argue that the two places were isolated from each
> Is there some weird connection?
> Regards
> Torsten Pedersen