Re: RELIGION: - Red /// - Indo-Europeans and Semitoids

--- In cybalist@egroups.com, "Glen Gordon" <glengordon01@...> wrote:

>
> Arkugal:
> > - You say that the red is connected with the Underworld, and the
> >warriors are thus linked with this realm: but what is the

connection

> >between the Underworld and Deities such as MARS, THOR, TYR, INDRA,
> >ARES, ATHENA, PERKUNAS, PERUN?... Aren't all this Deities precisely
> >uranic?
>
> There isn't an underworld connection when it comes to Thor

Good. THOR is the Warrior God within the Northern Tradition.

/Tyr (from *Dye:us

> "the ruler of the Overworld") or Athena (from *Wa:tnos "the wise

one-eyed

> priest"). Those two are associated with the sky and therefore mixed

up with

> European symbols associated with creation such as the bird

(Remember the two

> birds in Norse myth called "Memory" and...? gee, I forgot the other

one).

Hugin and Munnin, Thought and Memory. Why must people always talk
about «creation»?

> Mars-Indra/Parjanya-Perkunas-Perun-Fjo"rgyn is the deity set in

question.

> These gods all are linked to the warrior caste in IE myth and

therefore

> linked as well to the underworld via Dumezil's tripartition.

Where does Dumézil says that the warrior caste or the Warrior
Deities
have any connection with the Underworld?

> Three realms,
> three functions and hence three pairs of realm-function deity pairs

(cf.

> *Dye:us "Overworld" & *Wa:tnos "Priest"; *Yemos "Middleworld" &

*Manus

> "Commoner"; *Nepo:t "Underworld" & Pexwr-Gnnos "Warrior"). This
> three-function/realm structure is certainly present in IE myths and

is the

> inspiration for the three-headed serpent (one represents the

priest, one the

> commoner and one the warrior).

The Underwold would then be represented by the third level,
the «fertility» one.

> In Norse myth, Fjo"rgyn is the mother of Thor but this is certainly

a

> secondarily created relationship. The rest of these gods are all

related to

> thunder and storms. Thunder can be linked with the sky, yes, but it

is a

> _destructive_ force nonetheless. Storms are linked with Poseidon

(an

> underworld god) and these weather phenomena tend to be destructive

and

> chaotic, another underworld characteristic. At this point, it might

be

> important to mention the battles between Horus "sky" and

Seth "storm" in

> Egyptian mythology.

Yes, but the thunder is not necessarly connected with the Underworld,
neither is the Warrior God. That's the main subject here.

> Further, the name of this war-god is reconstructed as *Perkunos

according to

> Mallory because of the readily visible phonetic similarities seen

above but

> it could also be more credibly reconstructed as *Pexwr-Gnnos "Fire-

Born". I

> feel this name links him with a Semitoid concept of a firey

underworld where

> he, (perhaps named *Ba'ala in Semitish?) was the ruler of the sheol
> Underworld of fire. Another reality-based source for his IE name

would come

> from his very early association with Mars, a planet that can be

seen by the

> naked eye to have a ruddy tint (red=chaos=bloodshed/war).

Yes; however, one can think about two different Fire Gods: the
Underworldly one, such as HEPHAISTOS, and the Overworldly one, such
as AGNI; does the Fire have any chtonic connection in Iran - ATAR -
or in the Slavic world - OGONI - or in the Germanic world - LOKI? VE?
VILI? Perhaps SURTR, at best.

> > - What proofs exist of semitic influence in the IE traditions?
>
> There are many good linguistical connections between Semitic (via

Semitish)

> and IE. However, I'm starting to realise that many of these words

were so

> succesfully borrowed into IndoEuropean primarily because of the

magical and

> religious connotations that they held in addition to agricultural

ones.

Couldn't these influences flow in the opposite way, from IE to
Semitic?

> Semitish *napis^s^a "breathe/air" (Semitic *napis^tu)
> MidIE *nebese (IE *nebhes-)
> - The physical element associated with the Overworld

What element? In which languages?

> Semitish *ba`ra "fire", *[b`r] "to burn"
> MidIE *pexwere (IE *pexwr)
> (-> FU pa"iva" "warmth")
> - The physical element associated with the Underworld


> Semitish *awila "man" (Akkadian /awilu/)
> MidIE *weire (IE *weiro-)
> - Humankind, especially, in relation to the creation myth
>
>
> Semitish *s^iksa "six" (Semitic *s^idTu)
> MidIE *swekse (IE *sweks)
> (also Kartvelian *wekws-, Etruscan /s'a/)
> - For starters, the number of planetary bodies in the sky
> minus the great *XWewi-De:ru "World-Tree, Sirius".
>
> Semitish IndoEuropean
> ----------------------------------
> Sun *S^amas^a *Sxwe:l
> Moon *S^ina *Me:n
>
> Venus *`Astarta *Xste:r
> Mars *Ba'ala *Pexwr-Gnnos

Does BAAL have any connection with war? Was He a Semitic MARS? And
what is common between *Pexwr-Gnnos and *Ba'ala?

> Jupiter *Ana *Dyeus
> Saturn ? *Gwou-Xanas

Isn't ANU Sumerian? And which is the connection between *Dyeus and
*Ana?

What about SATURN and Gwou-Xanas? Can you give further elements?

> - Note that they are seperated into meaningful pairs...

The pair SUN-MOON is too obvious, it does not need any cultural inter-
influence to be justified;
The pair MARS-VENUS belongs to the Greek Mythology - ARES-APHRODITE,
while in archaic Roman Tradition there is not such pair.
The «pair» JUPITER-SATURN belongs as well to the Greek
Mythology
ZEUS-KRONOS
not to the Archaic Roman one.

> Semitish *s^ebtam "the seven" (Semitic *s^eb-)
> MidIE *septem (IE *septm)
> (also Kartvelian *s^wid-, Etruscan /sempH/)
> - The seven planetary bodies in the sky
> - Associated with Creation myth
> - Associated with Flood myth
>
>
> Arkugal:
> >You mentioned *Dei- and the Etruscans when talking about this

matter. >Can

> >you explain?
>
> The Etruscans knew the bright sky god of the steppes as Tin

(IndoTyr

> *T:ei-en "That which is bright") and this god was equated with the

Roman

> Jupiter because of their similarity in function.

So, the Etruscans received an IE influence in this case?

> >Why should the IE have a religious tradition entirely based on

other

> >folks' ways?
>
> It wasn't entirely at all! I just finished explaining that IE myth

was a

> _fusion_ of three mythological structures.

It is the same! Three OTHER mythological structures.


The steppe tradition had

> *T:eien/*T:eieu "Bright One" as the sky god. This was associated

with the

> SemitoEuropoid sky god *Ana

Was there any Semitic, or Europoid God named *Ana? Isn't He purely
Sumerian?

The steppe *T:eien/*T:eieu was based on the IE root *Deiwos, coming
from the IE root *Dei-, that would express the idea of Brightness
connected with the Sky?
Because that is the meaning of the IE Deities JUPITER, ZEUS,
DAIPATURES, DIEVS, TYR(ZIU), DYAUS PATER


who was already "married off" to the old hag of

> European religion (the Destructrix of the waters, the serpent)

because of

> cross-cultural colour symbolisms (in this case, "white" which was a

symbol

> of order to the Semitoids but a symbol of death to the Europeans,

Where is it stated thjat white was a symbol of death for the
Europeans?

> The Early IndoEuropeans, already having a sky god called *T:eien,

simply

> considered *Ana as equivalent.

EQUIVALENCE...that is different.

>Thus came all the MiddleEastern and European
> associations that came with it. This process of cross-cultural

mythological

> coordination (<-- cool term, huh?) is the same used by Greeks and

Romans

> whose mythologies had also assimilated together because of

perceived

> connections by its peoples (Mars with Ares, for instance).
>
>
> - gLeN
>
>

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