Re: [tied] Re: Dumezil, Trito and Athena: MY IE main Gods

From: Glen Gordon
Message: 3309
Date: 2000-08-20

Joao explains:
>1) *Pexwr-Genos can't explain Fjo"rgynn. Fjo"rgynn <*Perkunos

Then how do we explain the related Indic "Parjanya" with a -j-? What is
*PerkWnos supposed to mean?

>*DYE:U "Sky-Father, All-Father" < Zeus, Jupiter, Odinn, Dyau/Kashyapa>

Right, well... more like *Dye:us actually. Don't forget the nominative case

>*DYU:NI: "Sky-Mother, All-Mother <Dione, Juno, Aditi, Frigg

Aaaahhh, right! That makes sense. I didn't realise.

>In my opinion there's no Earth-Heaven couple in PIE mythology - this
> >concept was later influence of Sumerian/Western Asia mythology

In my opinion, there are so many parallels between Middle-Eastern and IE
mythos as to suggest an expansive mythological area of influence that
parallels the economic ties that no doubt occured at the same time and

>their children:
>*PERKUNOS/PERAUNOS "Thunder-God" <Zeus,Jupiter, Thorr (Odinn), Indra,

Zeus-Jupiter gives birth to himself??

>*WA:TNOS "Terrible Sovereign, one-eyed; Master of Beast-men" <Zeus,
> >Jupiter, Stator, Varuna, Odinn, Lugh>

Hmmm, Piotr's *waxt-?

>*MITROS "Peacemaker, one-handed; Justice and law" <Zeus(Apollon), >Mitra,
>Tyr, Nuada>

I think *Mitros and *Wa:tnos are in part the same god.

>2) I don't believe *Eryomon = *Manus.
>*ERYOMEN "Protector of Community; Weddings, Births" <Aryaman, Balder,
>Eleuthia (female), Juventas(female)>

Well, it makes more sense if "ERYOMEN" was the first human and thus
equivalent to *Manus. In my mythological scheme, *XeryoManus is the
representative of the commoner caste (*Xedhnos = priest caste, *PexwrGnnos =
warrior caste). As such a representative, he would naturally, therefore, be
a "protector of _community_" since the welfare of his human offspring would
obviously be of interest to him!

>*BHAGOS "Destiny, Blind" <Bhaga, Ho"dr, Terminus>

Got that. Mentioned by Mallory. Also associated with Zeus-Bagaios and has to
do with gift-giving, I think.

>*RUDROS "God of vengeance, Health and Pestilence" <Rudra, Apollon, >Vali>

But... this literally means "red", the color of the warrior caste and a
symbol of *Pexwr-Gnnos (Mars-Ares). Are you sure this god has a clear,
seperate function?

>*WISNUS "Savior of Gods; Giant; Space" <Vishnu, Vidarr, >Herakles/Briareos,
>Vidarr, Lugh>

Mallory also relates Heracles to his cattle-less *Trito, another hero and

>*EGNIS "Fire; trickster; multiform" <Agni, Loki, Prometheus

Yes, that's a winner. More like *XegWnis actually. Mallory relates
Prometheus and I would associate him as well with Shiva, the destroyer.

>*WE:YUS "Wind; violent; horse-bringer, super-strength" <Vayu, Poseidaon,

Don't know about that yet.

>*LA:TRI: "The Night Goddess" <Ra:tri, Leto (Nyx)>

Wouldn't a name like *NekWt make better sense? What's *La:tri:??

>*AUSO:S "The Dawn Goddess" <Mater Matuta, Eos, Ushas, *Austron->

Yep, definitely! *Xeuso:s

>*SWEL "Sun, all-seeing, all-hearing" <Surya, Sol, Apollon (Helios),
>Heimdallr (!) >

*Sxwe:l, yes, of course.

>Other gods I can't deduce the relationship:
>*APOM NEPOT "The Child of Waters; Master of Subterraneous Waters" <Apam
>Napat, Neptunus, Poseidaon, Mimir>

Grandson of *Da:nu, the primordial waters. I think that he is brother with
*Pexwr-Gnnos (warrior caste/Underworld). His wife would be Xste:r (Venus).

>*? "God of Time; First to Born, first to die <Heimdallr, Bhishma, Lugh,
>Akhiles (epic doublet), Diana>

Yes, Mallory mentions him too. Perhaps this is also the rehashed story of
*Yemos' death by the hand of his twin brother, the great ancestor of
mankind. Thus, the god of time is *Yemos... but he's already associated with
the Middleworld (earth) and death.

>Three *ALBHEWES "The Heavenly Artisans <Kyklopes, Rbhus, Goibniu and 2
>brothers; Ivaldir's children>

Ooh, cool.

>*? "Bright God, three-legged, magic ship, flying horse, master of air
> >elves"><Freyr, Manawyddan, Manannan, Kubera>

Hmm. For the same argument as *?Rudros, bright colours involve the priest
caste. Can we be sure that this isn't a later outcropping from *Xedhnos
(*Waxtnos), the god of the priest caste.

>*? "Dark God, giant; Underworld, master of subterraneous elves" ><Surtur,
>Bran, Ravana>

Krishna is "dark" too, just like the colour of the commoner caste.
Therefore, he was more associated with nature and the _Middleworld_ (not
Underworld). He is possibly yet another embodiment of the Middleworld pair
*XeryoManus-Yemos. Take note that, in the end, Surtr is the one that burns
the world in the Apocalypse. Does this mean that Evil or the warrior caste
wins in the end?? Hardly.

It all makes better sense and becomes cleverly and poetically ironic if
Surtr et al. are simply embodiments of the commoner caste. Thus, the
Apocalypse is a simple symbolism suggesting that _we_, the commoners, will
ultimately do ourselves in, through the use of fire (a _Middleworld_
element). However, the story ends up being about human perseverance whose
tale is moulded from the cycle of the three seasons:

Winter (white, Overworld, air, priest)
Growing Season (green, Middleworld, earth/fire, commoner)
Harvest Burning (red, Underworld, water, warrior)

Like duh!

>*? "God who lose his head; wise " <Mimir, Bran, Daksha/Ganesha>

Aaah! Yes. Good one.

>*LOUKSNA "THe Moon (female or male? androgynous?), Triple Goddess?"
> ><Selene, Artemis, Luna, Durga>

I call it *Me:n, personally, and... it's a boy! I think that the Sun is male
too who has a horse-wife named Day (possibly giving birth to the Horse
Twins). Moon's wife is Night, a wolf and hunter. Hence, the wolf chases the
horse across the Overworld and Underworld. Makes sense now?

>*WRTA:S" "The three Old Women, Fate" <Parcae(Vorta), Moirai, Nornir
>(Urd), Three-folded Durga?, Badb?, Rozhenitsa>

I'll think about that. This could dangerously be yet another outcrop of the
basic tripartioning of the IE mythos though, so I'm skeptical.

Hmmm, I think I will make *Da:nu the oldest god (Chaos/Tiamat/Nu). Sometimes
associated as a black bird of darkness, *Da:nu lays a seed/egg from which
grows the great *XWewi-De:ru "Egg-Tree". The Tree grows four branches to
support the new Overworld (upper egg shell) and four roots that go into the
Underworld (lower egg shell).

The four branches are the *xensu: *Dye:us (sky), *Xste:r (love), *Xedhnos
(priest) and *? (Amphritrite)

The four roots are the *wenu: *Nepo:t (waters), *Dyunis/GWo:u-Mate:r
(Juno-Hera), *Pexwr-Gnnos (warrior) and *Xreghnis (Seipnir-Arachne)

To make a long story short, the *xensu gods marry the *wenu goddesses and
the *wenu gods marry the *xensu goddesses. This is a symbolic
coming-together of two moieties, teehee! From there, everything else is
born... the sun, the moon, day, night, Horse Twins, the Middleworld, etc.

This way, Grandson (*Nepo:t) and Sky (*Dye:us) were born directly from the
Egg-Tree and are cousins while *Xedhnos-Dye:us, *XeryoManus-Yemos and
*PexwrGnnos-Nepo:t are all brother-pairs. Later, this literal family "tree"
is rearranged in favor of more likable "humanoid" parents for these two
groups of deities, via new symbolic associations and cutsy-ootsy
explanations for the way the cosmos runs itself.

- gLeN

Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at