Re: [tied] Re: Gimbutas.

From: celteuskara@...
Message: 3115
Date: 2000-08-14

Attachments :
Hello everyone, I've only just subscribed to what appears to be an interesting and very lively discussion group! My name is Ben McGarr, an Anthropology and Archaeology undergraduate at Durham University, England, with an interest in linguistics and the sort of genetic stuff that Cavalli-Sforza and others are working on. I hope you don't mind the intrusion of an amateurish dilletante but this particular thread caught my attention;
>
>
>>>>Germanic pronunciation seems to have changed more than
>>>most IE languages.

For what it's worth I thought you might like to see an old Nineteenth Century opinion on this question; I can't remember the exact reference or date [or vouch for the up to date scholarship!] but Hubert once proposed that Germanic represents "garbled IE borrowings of an earlier people", presumably of some sort of Euskadic or Fennic origin, supposing that there was thus a replacement of "difficult" IE phonemes e.g. H for K. I am curious as to your views on this. To my way of thinking, and please forgive my flights of fancy, it ties in nicely with the idea of these nations having been under strong Celtic influence or even political dominion, and explaining the seemingly Celtic names of some of the leaders of the Cimbri and Teutones as transliterated in Classical accounts. This model for early Germanic history may have later resulted in their revolting and thus pushing south and west to the Danube and Rhine, expelling the Volcae and Boii. I wonder if anyone can tell me anything of the way in which the Germanic languages are seen to tie in with other IE families, for instance which it most closely resembles in structure and original vocabulary? As you might guess from my surname I will be more than a little pleased to hear Celtic
pop up in this context, although I fear it may be all to apparent that my sources for such ideas are quite old.


Dennis wrote
>>I read somewhere that one possible consequence of the glottalic theory for
>>PIE is that Germanic could be seen as preserving most faithfully the
>>original phonological system of PIE. In addition, given the parallels in
>>Germanic and Hittite grammar, these two could reflect more faithfully the
>>original grammar of PIE, and that the developments in Greek, Sanskrit etc.
>>should be seen as the innovations.

For the sake of amusement [though who can pronounce with complete assurance on these matters?!]I thought I'd mention another old German of the Culture History school who liked to make pseudohistorical conjectures in this area. This fellow drew a direct link between Hittites/Hethiter/Chettim and the midGerman tribe of the Chatti as mentioned by Tacitus, thereby appending to his own nation an enviable pedigree! Coincidence,eh?

>>If this is so, it changes the focus. Perhaps PIE originated in Europe,
>>extended eastwards to the steppes, underwent an evolution there and then
>>speakers of this modified �Steppe� IE then migrated westwards again.
>>Thus, the substratum of IE in Europe would be an earlier variety of the
>same
>>language. Perhaps, in this way one could explain how IE imposed itself on
>>the European population.

This is new. I quite like it, too.

>An very interesting one, but not so likely IMO. The relatedness of IE &
>Uralic suggests IE came from the East. Who knows?
>
>Marc

I wonder though, on the subject of the Steppes, have you heard of the [in my opinion rather far fetched] ideas emerging recently as to the Uralians having a homeland far more to the west of where this is usually sited, right beyond the present borders of Russia, even. I have heard of a theory espoused by Grover Krans that the pre Classical indigenous population of Pannonia spoke a form of Ugrian, millenia before Arpad's day, in the face of all written records and traditions! To me, however, this smacks suspiciously of nationalistic Hungarian attempts to bolster national pride or claim absolute autochthony in disputed territories.

I think I'll follow your leads in waiting for the return of Piotr regarding the Germanic question!

Yours, Ben




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