Re: Gimbutas.

From: John Croft
Message: 3065
Date: 2000-08-11

Marc wrote

> The LP came from the Balkan & Anatolia, isn't it? they were the
first farmers AFAIK? If you think they spoke IE, with what branch do
they correlate IYO? celtic? germanic? or an extinct branch? (if it
an extinct branch there's no way to know what IE language they
IE people loaned agricultural terms from an AA language
(perhaps they got a "superior" culture by combining agricult.elements
with steppe elements?). More likely, therefore, IMO, the LP farmers
did not speak IE, but a Middle East (AA?) language. They seem to have
spread over the fertile regions (Danube>Rhine loess) with a speed of
some 20 km per generation (son's farm next to father's?). They may
correlate with C-S's 1st = most important component with the centre
the Middle East (logically: introduction of agriculture).

Linear Pottery didn't come from the Middle East. They developed in
situ from a process of neolithicisation of pre-existing mesolithic
cultures which were in contact with Starcevo-Koros culture which
definitely did come from NW Anatolia. There is no link further East
until 10,500 BCE with the early Natufian.

> C-S's 2d component (with centre in Lapland) perhaps correlates with
the original mesolithic population in Europe (fishing, gathering...),
possibly more densely populated than usually believed (or else we
suppose it represents the Germanic+Viking invasions in the 1st
mill.AD? in that case C-s's 5th component with centre in Viskaya
represent the original Eur.population??).

The Swiderian and Maglemose cultures, derived from the Upper
Paleolithic cultures of Western Europe followed the retreating herds
of reindeer northwards with the end of the Ice Age. In the marshy
conditions they found behind the retreating ice sheets, they
specialised as fisher folk. This I feel is what C-S's 2nd component
is measring.

It is interesting that C-S leaves out of his European data the
Sardinians who are completely different from anyone else.
Sardinian settlement began about 9,000 BCE, long before the
neolithic settlements from the east (measured by 1st component).
Their closest affiliations are with the Viskayans and with the
Caucasians to the East - suggesting the Dene-Caucasian hypothesis may
be proven genetically.

Marc? Piotr? writes some good stuff in the remainder of their post.

Just one thing I'd add. Whatever the case I would suggest the shifts
from Pre-IE languages (maybe extinct but related tongues) to IE was
very complex, mixtures of elite dominance (Gambutas's kurgans),
movements, trade languages and a slow and steady infiltration
occurring over centuries. A good model to use, I feel is the
replacement of Iranian languages by Turkic on the steppes, from 160