Piotr wrote
> I mentioned the early Trans-Caucasian influences manifesting
themselves in the North Pontic region. The Bug-Dniester and
Dnieper-Donetz cultures are currently seen as Mesolithic foragers who
adopted elements of the Körös and Linear Pottery cultures but
did not
undergo full Neolithicisation.
>
> I assume any not-quite-Neolithic cultures in that area were
easily
absorbed by the IEs, though I agree a more detailed description of
the
process should be offered, especially as regards the formation of
pastoralist cultures.
From what I have been reading the Srendny Stog culture was the first
"full-neolithic" to emerge in this area. It is generally accepted I
understand to be a result of a fusion of elements drawn from the
separate Bug-Dneistr and Don-Donnetz cultures, with neolithic
overlays
coming from Tripolye and Maikop (and ultimately across the Caucasas).
Mallory suggests (and I tend to go along with his argument) that they
were the first Indo-Europeans. There would thus be four different
cultural elements that made up early I-E. From which of these
various
parts of the language came is anyone's guess. Glen would argue that
Tripolye and Starcevo were Semitish, but this seems too fanciful to
me. I rather see Starvevo as Indo-Tyrrhenian and Tripolye as an
intermediate language group between IE and IT that would now be
extinct.... but there is no evidence what language such potters
spoke,
so it is too hard to guess.
Piotr again
>At any rate, the penetration of the "pure"
Linear Pottery culture from SE Poland down the Dniester and into the
Prut/Siret "Mesopotamia" is very well documented. I envisage some
mixing of IE-derived and Proto-Starchevo cultural traits in the
Tripolye region, with the older West Pontic elements gradually
receding. Perhaps the Proto-Hellenes began to absorb non-IE
vocabulary
as early as that.
John
Interesting thought. Certainly Anatolian seems to avoid many of the
features found in other IE languages, perhaps they could be
proto-Anatolians?
Piotr again
> My scenario assumes that up to about 5500 BC (the Black Sea
event?) the pre-PIEs and Proto-Tyrrhenians lived close to each other
west of the Black Sea (hence the similarities due either to early
convergence or to their hypothetical genetic relationship). If anyone
wants to identify Starchevo as *the* Proto-Tyrrhenian culture, it's
fine as far as I'm concerned. The Starchevo/Körös complex is no
doubt
the result of cultural influence radiating from Anatolia (at a time
when there was still a landbridge where the Bosporus is now!), but I
don't feel qualified to arbitrate between you and Glen as regards the
more remote ethnic and linguistic history of the Starchevo people.
>
There is evidence that this movement out of Anatolia began very early
(circa 9,800 BCE) and continued well into late neolithic times.
There
are clear evidences of movements across the Troad and then along the
north Thracian coast and up the Vardar gap. Whether all these
movements were of different elements of the one language group (IT),
or whether there were multiple languages involved (Glen's thesis) is
anyones guess. There certainly seems to be a fairly consistent
series
of cultural elements involved (and if the pre-Greek evidence is to be
believed - a fairly consistent set of linguistic features too).
As for not adjudicating in the argument between Glen and myself - I
would suggest that that is wise....
Regards
John
> Piotr