Re: Gimbutas.

From: John Croft
Message: 3040
Date: 2000-08-10

Marc wrote

> Yes, there are different possibilities. Perhaps Germanic
underwent more foreign influence, so that Gothic retained much less
PIE grammar than Latin, Greek or Sanskrit? Perhaps the whole
corded-bell beaker was purely Germanic rather than
Balto-Slavic+Germ.+Celto-It., and Celto-Italic was another (earlier)
wave, and Balto-Slavic was a late(r) invasion in M+E-Europe? or the
beaker cultures were Celto-Italic and (your opinion?) Germanic was
earlier than the beaker cultures?
>
> As for Corded Ware, its origin is certainly more complex than
in
Childe's and Gimbutas's theories: some steppe influence, but also
continuous development at old TRB sites. There may be a grain of
truth
in the élite-dominance scenario, but in most cases an élite
outnumbered by the locals doesn't manage to change their language.

TRB sites, given that they developed out of intermediary cultures
(Baden, Rosen etc) that in turn developed from LBK Danubian 1 may be
from groups that are intermediate as Glen suggests between
Indo-Tyrrhenian and Indo-European (perhaps we could call them
Indo-Danubian?). It may also be that TRB is the cultural wave that
developed as Nordwestgruppen (Sandwiched in the Netherlands,
from the Somme to the Alter, between Celtic and Germanic)

Marc wrote
> Do you think so? IMO the upper class can & does impose their
language, at least after several generations. This is what we saw in
Gallia (Latin replaced Celtic up to the Rhine, later the invading
Germanic tribes replaced Latin in N & E Gallia up to line that
connects the capitals of the bishoprics). Brussels 100 years ago was
Dutch-speaking except for the palace & government (the bourgeoisie,
as
in all cities in N-Belgium, spoke both, but wrote in French), now
it's
mostly French-speaking, although in other N-Belgian cities the
French-speaking upper class has disappeared. Only in England the
Normans did not impose their language, but they were a very small
minority. In France, French replaces all other dialects & languages.
In Germany, Low-German is disappearing. In the Netherlands, Frysian
has almost disappeared. In Great Brittain, Welsh is disappearing. The
best example is perhaps that even Ireland speaks English.

In actual fact, after centuries, the number of Welsh speakers is
growing again! What happened is an interesting case study in
linguistic survival. With the state run comprehensives and grammar
schools no offering Welsh language studies, the chief way of
distinguishing between elite private schools and non-elite government
schools was that the former offered Welsh language, the latter did
not.

Thus the speaking of Welsh, which for centuries had been a marker of
low socio-economic status, suddenly became a marker for high
socio-economic status. It became a "fashionable thing" to be able to
speak Welsh and the Welsh language (Cymric) has started to grow as a
result. Even the BBC has started producing Welsh Language programs
in
Wales!

This reversal has been studied by other Celtic languages as a way in
which they can be preserved. It will be interesting to watch what is
going to happen to Urse, Scots Gaelic, Breton, Manx and even the
recent revival of Cornish in future years.

I wonder if we could make reviving IE "fashionable"? ;-)

Regards

John