Re: [tied] Re: IE, AA, Nostratic and Ringo

----- Original Message -----

From: Håkan Lindgren

To: Cybalist

Sent: Thursday, 27 July, 2000 2:35 PM

Subject: [tied] Re: IE, AA, Nostratic and Ringo

 We are usually told that "everything began with the Greeks" - they invented science, philosophy, architecture, mathematics, art, etc. I've even heard this at university. During my university studies (I studied the history of ideas) the influence on Greek philosophy and science from Egypt or other countries was hardly mentioned. But if most of the Greek words for these activities are borrowed, then the picture changes considerably. The Greeks must have been much more dependent on other cultures than what is widely known. Does anyone here know more about this - from whom did the Greeks borrow this? Could you give any specific examples of words and concepts being borrowed?

 

Thank you Haakan for the interest. You're quite right that, if correct, this changes everything - in particular European perception of the non-European world and our relationship with it.

The subject is vast, and this forum is no place to discuss the whole gamut. I've tried to limit myself to the linguistic consequences for an important IE language, Greek, and only small ventures into the culture as I'm no expert on either Egypt or Greece and have only limited resources available here. John, my main antagonist here generally argues from a historical/archaeological point of view, which I have done my best to research via the net and to counter, since if the history and archaeology stand up, then the general scheme in which this massive cultural and linguistic borrowing could take place also stands.

I admit I've used this forum somewhat as a sounding board to test the data, since, of all people, Indo-Europeanists would be most likely to disagree. Besides, my fundamental interest in the whole question is linguistic.

So, to found out more, I suggest you start with Martin Bernal's - Black Athena, The Afroasiatic Roots of Classical Civilisation. Amazon have it. There are two volumes, with massive annotation and bibliographies. The work has also produced a furore in American academic circles, an idea of which you can glean from

gopher://gopher.lib.virginia.edu/00/alpha/bmcr/v96/96-4-5 which is a review by Martin Bernal of a book "Not Out of Africa" by Mary Levkowitz, itself a savage critique of Bernal's Black Athena.

Another place to get an idea of the storm this has created is "The Afrocentric Debate" at http://www.jps.net/kabalen/afro.htm

However this site doesn't seem to be working yet, the original address was : http://www.he.net/~skyeagle/afro.htm

 

The idea that "everything began with the Greeks", as you will find very well elucidated in Vol.1 of BA, is very recent, having its origin in the early 1800's. Up to then, from Herodotos to the French Revolution, the accepted wisdom was the Greeks were the (imperfect) transmitters of the ancient wisdom of Egypt.

 

The only new piece of data that had become available was that Greek was an Indo-European language. Even so, K.O. Mueller, whose book Introduction to a Scientific System of Mythology (1825) was most influential in demolishing the idea of an outside source for Greek mythology, didn't draw on this new science. But it coincided with several new trends in European thinking, which I would summarise very briefly as :

1. Romanticism and Racism - the notions that races were distinct and had eternal essences, that racial purity was the ideal, and that the white (misnamed in this period as Caucasian) race were superior and had the right, even duty, to conquer and subjugate the lesser races to bring them the benefits of civilisation (Manifest Destiny, La Mission Civilisatrice) - Prometheus being seen as the archetypical European;

2. a wave of "Philohellenism" across Europe, particularly during the Greek War of Independence, which was pictured as young, dynamic, progressive Europe throwing off the shackles of the old, degenerate and despotic Orient. This Philohellenism was particularly strong in Germany (as was Romanticism), where the Germans were seen as the spiritual successors of the Greeks (while the French were seen as the heirs of Rome, and England as the successor of the Phoenicia), particularly in language and the political disunity of the period;

3. the educational reforms instituted in Prussia, which were entrusted to these Philhellenes, who established Classics, and particularly study of the Greeks, as the central pillar of the new "Bildung". This reform has enormous success and was soon emulated in other countries, particularly England and US, and laid the foundations of the modern university system.

 

With the hardening of the attitude of European racial superiority it became more and more unthinkable that the cradle of European civilisation and the epitome of all the virtues of the white race could owe anything whatsoever to Africans or Semites, and of course any actual mixing of the blood was utterly out of the question. Thus was born the image of dynamic, patriarchal, sky-worshipping white Greeks warriors invading and dominating the passive, matriarchal, Earth Mother-worshipping albeit more advanced civilisations of the Aegean basin.

This is the real myth - not Kadmos and Danaos.

 

Although modern scholarship is no longer (one would hope) overtly racist in the way much of pre-war scholarship in this area was (If you don't believe, check out people like Rhys Carpenter, Salomon Reinach et al.), the paradigm has been set, and academic careers, reputations and millions of word of print have been expended adumbrating and promoting this paradigm. So, if you're really interested, you have to approach it from a rather oblique angle, since, other than Bernal's work and "Afrocentrist" writers such as CGG James or Cheik Anta Diop, there are no works of reference.

 

So, to briefly answer your question "from whom?" - the Egyptians and the Semitic-speaking Levantine cities.

Some specific examples :

1. Toponyms

Athens                    Eg. Ht Nt            the temple/house of Neit

Thebes                    Eg. d_b3t           temple, shrine; d_b3 wicker float; Sem. te:bah  ark, chest

Sparta/Sardis          Eg. sp(3)(t)        distrinct (nome) and its capital

Mycenae                 Sem. makHaneh    camp, resting place

Salamis                    Sem. root slm        peace, security

Larissa                    Eg. r-3Ht            Entry to Fertile Land

Kopais (lake)            Eg. KbH        lake with wild fowl

Kephissos (rivers)    Eg. kbH           fresh (of water)

Megara (Meara)    Sem. mGrt        cave

Mothone                Eg. mtwn            arena for bull fighting

 

2. Divine, Semi-Divine and Legendary Figures

Rhadamanthys        Eg. rd' mant_u        Mantu gives - Mantu patron deity of 11th dyn. (Mantuhotpe/Menthotpe)

Hera(kles)                Sem. Hrr            1. noble, free 2. scorch, burn (cf. Sem. Erra the Scorcher)

Okeanos                  Sem. 3wg            draw a circle

Titanoi                    Sem. t_yt_            mud

Semele                    Eg. smlyt            royal consort

I(a)on                    Eg. 'iwn(t)(y)        bowman, barbarian, cf. Ionians, Pan/Paion p3 'iwn the barbarian

Io                            Eg. 'iH                (Copt. ioh) Moon; 'iht/'ihw wild cow

Europa                    Sem. 3rb            west, setting sun

Anchinoe                Eg. 3nkH nwy            life-giving waters, cf. Anchirrhoe 3nkH + IE sreu

Kekrops                Eg. kHpr k3 ra'        by-name of Senwosre I (12th dyn) - legendary founder of Athens

 

3. Weaponry and Trade Goods

harma           chariot and tackle         Sem. Hrm        net

phasganon    sword                            Sem. root psg    cleave

xiphos           sword                        Eg. sft             knife

chrysos        gold                            Sem. kHarus        gold

elephas        ivory                            Eg. 3bw            elephant

sitos            wheat (as cereal)            Eg. s(w)t            wheat

chiton/kiton    garment                    Sem. ktn/ Heb.ketonet   tunic

lita            linen                                Sem. lt_    covering (Heb. lo:t_, Ass. lit_u)

 

4. Miscellaneous words/concepts

schema - form and sema - mark, sign        Sem. Sem    name

xenos        foreigner, enemy            Eg. Snt and Sem. s_n'        hate, enemy

makar-    blessed                            Eg. m3' kHrw    true of voice, i.e. the Blessed Dead

tima-        honour                        Eg. d' m3'        render true, justify

chera        widow                        Eg. kH3rt        widow

martyr        witness                    Eg. matrw          witness

bomos        altar                        Sem. bamah        high place, altar

haima        blood, spirit, courage     Sem. Hayyim    life

kudos        divine glory                    Sem. qds        holy

kosm-        cosmos, etc.                Sem. qsm        divide, arrange, decide

 

While members of this list may not agree with some or all of these, there are no accepted IE etymologies for any of these words (AFAIK), so I think there is a case here to be investigated more fully. Futhermore, this can be investigated as it is citing languages that are well known, rather than having recourse to unknown Asianic/Mediterranean languages.  

 

Regards

Dennis