Re: Semitish influence on IE

To my post

> >An excellent, and highly controvercial book by Thomas L Thompson

[...]

Glen wrote

> I personally prefer to read the mainstream books before I dabble in

the controversial.

It is only controversial because it disagrees with what Christian
theologians and biblical scholars claim. Thompson prefers to work by
the findings of linguistics and archaeology rather than Biblical
apologetics and exegesis.

Glen then wrote

> In the past week and a half, I've been catching up on the

archaeology and

> I've become thoroughly convinced that it was the _Natufians_ who

spoke an

> early stage of Semitic (or rather, of both Semitish and Semitic).

We
see a

> very early spread of Natufian cultural elements (architecture,

lithic) into

> Beldibi and Belbasi (SW Anatolia) at around 8000 BCE or so and

apparently,

> at first, they imported their obsidian from Ciftli.

Belbasi culture is too early to have been significantly influenced by
Natufians. It began 13,000 BCE, Natufian culture only began about
10,500 BCE, so unless you believe in time travel! It was Kebaran
influence (18,000-10,500 BCE) that is demonstrated in the Belbasi -
and the Kebarans stand the best chance of being the Nostratics, not
of
AA. Their connections in Africa go back to Khargan culture (24,000 -
17,000) and seem to have left the area during the great arid period
of
the ice age Maximum (18,000 BCE). They go back to the Ateran culture
(30,000-18,000) which is far too early for Afro-Asiatic (but may be
the culture from which Niostratic eveolved). If Kebaran is non A-A
Nostratic, and Natufian developed in situ out of Kebaran with no
further African influence, then it makes if difficult to have them be
Semitic/Semitish Glen.

There are Natufian elements in the Beldibi culture. So I'll grant
you
that point. Beldibi was fairly tightly confined into the Cilician
region and there is no trace of it further to the west.

>This would be

the early

> Semitish speakers spreading into Anatolia from Syria and Palestine,

leaving

> the Semitic people behind.

It could equally be the Nostratic languages spreading into Anatolia
from Syria and Palestine.

>It was only when the Semitish were

already

> established in West and North Anatolia, even Crete, that the Hattic

started

> spreading out by 7000 BCE and influencing their aceramic culture

with

> archaeology and pottery, pushing them into the Balkans.

Possible, except that the aceramic that is found in the Balkans seems
to have come from NW Anatolia (the Troad) and across into Nea
Nicomedia in Macedonia. There is no connection between Nea Nicomedia
and SE Anatolia. There was a clear cultural divide between SW and NW
Antolia that lasted into late Hittite times, Glen.

Your scenario only makes sense, Glen if the Natufians spoke Semitic.
The at first glance this could make sense, except that the Natufians
did not come out of Africa. They developed their culture in situ
from
the Earlier Kebaran (18,000-10,500), as I mentioned above. And
Kebaran is too early for the split.

> Now, here's where things get cool. I was also reading up on the

Goddess, who

> was worshipped by Anatolians before any intrusion from the south

and
that

> would continue to be worshipped until the kurgan spread starting

4500 BCE.

> I'm reading about this because I wanted to gain a mythological

basis
for the

> Semitish theory. I find myself very satisfied too.
>
> Marija Gambutas makes connections between the Goddess and the later

IE

> mythology. She basically blaims war and pestilence on the

patriarchal

> (non-gylanic) IndoEuropeans and therefore all men are inheirantly

evil. :) I

> would like to take a less feministic approach and say that the IE

are in

> fact not the main originators of their mythology afterall. Rather,

I
suspect

> the belief system is mostly inspired by the Semitish who were

already using

> a hybridized belief system of the monotheistic Goddess combined

with
African

> polytheistic values.

"African polytheism" so early is hard to demonstrate. Even in early
Egypt, it seems that the chief divinity until the coming of the
falcon
people (the hypothetical "Dynastic Race") was a goddess, portrayed
iconographically with upraised arms. It seems that this Goddess
later
split into a number of separate manifestations

Neith (the protectoress warrior goddess) in Sais
Nut (the sky)
Hathor (who made a compromise with the Falcon people by accepting the
falcon (Hor) into her name)
Auset (the Throne) cognate with Astarte in Syria. Auset was known to
the Greeks as Isis.

> The Goddess mythology basically goes as follows. There is only the

Goddess

> which created the world and everything in it. She lives in

everything - the

> sky, the waters and the land. As such, she is represented in

various
forms,

> but primarily the bird (sky), the serpent (waters) and the bull

(land).

>
> So, the Semitish may have been worshipping the Goddess as creator

but at the

> same time, preserving the spirits or gods that they brought with

them from

> Palestine.

It was not just the Semitish who did so Glen. It seems to have been
a
key factor of the first Caucasian speaking farmers. Catal Huyuk is a
classic site, showing clear connections between the iconography here
and the goddess images of the upper Paleolithic (Gravetians) which
stretched from Spain to the trans Ural region.

>Apparently, the southernmost Natufian has this thing with

skulls

> and ancestor worship.

This only came relatively late in the Natufian sequence. It
attracted
a great deal of attention, however, due to the artistic
sophistication
of the lime covered skulls, with inlaid cowrie eyes.

>If I read correctly, it appears that the

bodies are

> buried in a dismembered-like fashion, almost as though they were

afraid that

> their ancestors would come back to haunt them. Perhaps, they

originally

> viewed ancestors as the mediators to the gods, worshipping them for

a better

> life and to protect them from harm, whilst making sure that they

stayed in

> the underworld where they belong (ie: return of the living zombies,

yikes!).

The Underword as the "land of the zombies" is found from Sumeria to
ancient Greece. Only with the idea of the Classical Elyssian fields
did a more pleasant view of the underword spread.

> The Semitish would have brought this African style belief with

them.

Sorry Glen - Natufians have no connections back into Africa at such a
time. The Qadan (13,000-9,000 BCE) and the Isnan (9,000-4,500BCE)
cultures, the Natufians contemporaries in NE Africa show no
pre-Natufian connections at all. They are pure Saharan cultures
having connections with Capsian. These are almost undoubtably
Afro-Asiatic.

>They
> also certainly adopted the native Goddess belief of creation - you

know: In

> the Beginning, there was darkness and only the Goddess (as a bird,

aka

> Nyx/Yahweh) who laid an egg; the upper shell became the sky and the

lower

> shell the land; there's a great tree that holds up the sky (aka
> Yggdrasil/Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Bad); don't forget the

duelling

> twins with one of them founding mankind (aka the Horse Twins Castor

and

> Pollux, or should I say, Cain and Abel), yadayada.

There is also the underlying myth in Semitic of the Goddess as the
watery depths. She was the serpentine Tehom in Hebrew, Tiamat in
Akkadian. Taimat mingled salt from fresh water. The first act of
creation, coming from the body of Goddess Taimat herself was the the
separation of salt from fresh waters. This led to the birth of Anu
(Sky home of fresh rain) and Ki (Earth home of the salt water
oceans).
The Sumerian name Ki travelled westwards to become the Ge of the
Pelasgians (combined with IE aia=grandmother) to make Gaia, the
oldest
of the Greek Gods (See Cyril's essay on Gaia). Semitic El comes from
the Sumerian Ellil, or Enlil = Lord Air, the child born of the union
of the Earth with the Sky. But the air could not hold up the vault
of
heaven, and Taimat grew tired of the noise and disturbance of the
other Anunaki (Anu and Ki = Gods and Goddesses). She wished to
destroy the creation, but was resisted by the gods. Enlil agreed to
save the gods if they would install him as the king of heaven. They
agreed (thus establishing Male Patriarchy over the earlier mother
goddesses), and he slew Tiamat's husband (known to the Syrians as
Lawtan, and to the Hebrews as Leviathan), before dispatching the
Goddess herself, constructing the arch of the sky out of her ribs.

This myth that the world was created by the male gods slaying the
snake Goddess, was found in the Hittites, amongst the Greeks (Apollo
slew Python - (Gaia in another form), Zeus slew Typhon, Yahweh slew
Leviathan. The idea of the world as made from the body of a slain
divinity also shows up in Norse mythology (Ymir), who was cognate
with
the Iranian Jamashah and the Hindu Yama. Tehom also shows up as the
Greek Oceanus and as the Norse Midgard Serpent, who holds the world
together, so these myths travelled a long way.

> The two mythologies would have merged into a Eurafrican mix so that

the

> Creator Goddess (rather than the ancestors) became the mediator to

the other

> gods. In fact, since she was creator, obviously she would be an

"ancestor"

> too.

Eurafrican Glen? I think you are dreaming here.

>Hence, the connection. Therefore, gods like *`ATtaru (Venus)

and

> *Hadadu (Thunder) would exist side by side with the worshipped

Goddess, but

> the Goddess still may have represented the entire pantheon as a

whole and a

> mediator to the other gods.

Hadad as a thunder god is relatively late. Ishtar (Venus) shows up
as
Astarte in Syria, Ashtoreth in Israel, Auset in Egypt, Esther amongst
the Persians, and hence into the bible and as a modern name. She is
very early, but her association with the Semitic Innana seems to have
occurred principally during the reign of Sargon of Akkad, and his
daughter Enheduanna.

> It would also appear that *Hadadu (thunder god with horns and axe),

or

> according to the early IndoEuropeans, *Dye:us, merged with the

Goddess,

> producing *Dye:us Pxte:r "Lightning Father". Why? Because both of

them were

> associated with the bull. I guess that would be the reason why the

word

> *dyeus which would have originally meant "lightning" came to be the

word for

> "god" in general, since *Dye:us, as the embodiment of the Goddess

would

> pervade in everything and be the one and only god (at least, for a

while).

> This may be the reason why Zeus was suckled by the wolf (being the

Goddess

> in disguise and hence, his mother, lending validation to his

worship).

Zeus suckled by a wolf? Hardly, he was suckled by a goat Amalthea,
who fostered him, and hid him from the wrath of his father Chronos,
who swallowed all his other children.

> There is also *`ATtaru (Ishtar or Venus) which we can easily

connect
with

> the IE word *xste:r "star" since she was represented as such.

Venus
is the

> brightest planet in the sky, you know. Like all other Semitish

goddesses,

> she would be intrinsically associated with the Creator Goddess too.
>
> There's more, it would appear that the _Semitic_ peoples were also

later

> influenced by the Goddess (evidenced as well in the archaeology

with
venus

> figurines eventually strewn about in Palestine) and hence we have

the

> thoroughly pagan Bible with all the elements that are attributed to

the

> original Goddess religion with a smattering of African voodoo for

good

> measure. In fact, there's even evidence of a slight southward

cultural

> migration from Syria later on. Perhaps some Semitish went back

south as the

> Hattic were spreading.

African voodoo? Glen, please! Voodoo as a religion was the product
of the Slave centuries in coastal West Africa (from about 1400 CE
onwards. We are here talking at least 3,000 BCE. This sounds like
another of your famous time travel scenarios Glen ;-)

You asked how I'd wriggle out of this.

Firstly there are no African elements in Natufian
Secondly I don't believe in time travel

Hope this helps

John