Re: Odp: [cybalist] Odp: Nordwestblock

From: Tommy Tyrberg
Message: 2039
Date: 2000-04-04

At 22:44 2000-04-03 +0200, you wrote:
> ----- Original Message ----- From: Sergejus Tarasovas
>To: Sent: Monday, April 03, 2000 9:53 AM
>Subject: RE: [cybalist] Odp: Nordwestblock

I agree with Piotr and would like to add another early runic form: -gutum
(runic kutum) on the ninth century Rök runestone shows that goths were
called gut- in Old Norse. There is no doubt that the reference is to goths,
not the Scandinavian götar or gutar, since Teoderik (ThiodrikR) is also

The Götar (older Gautar) were (are?) the inhabitants of much of Southern
Sweden, particularily Östergötland and Västergötland. I'm from Östergötland
myself, so I suppose I qualify as a Göte. The Gutar (the word is still in
use) are the inhabitants of Gotland, As for the origin of these names it
has been much disputed. It seems likely that the names götar, gutar and
goths are somehow related, but their derivation is uncertain. The most
likely hypothesis is that they are related to the verb gjuta (Gothic giutan
OE giotan, Germ giessen) which means "to pour out". The connection is
uncertain, but it is possible that *Gaut is an old name for Göta älv
(Icelandic Gautelfr) and there is also a river *Gute (now Guteån) on
Gotland (cf the german town Giessen, originally a river name). However
there have been several other suggestions, all rather unlikely in my opinion.

Tommy Tyrberg

Greek and Latin sources agree
>that the general term for the various tribes classified as "Gothic" was
>*gutan- (an n-stem). Strabo has *Gutones (i.e. Gk. *Goútones,
>misspelt as Boútones), Pliny Gutones, Tacitus hesitates between Gotones
> and Gothones, while Ptolemy has Gythones. Later Greek sources call
>them Gotthoi, which becomes Latin Gothi or Gothae. I'll give you my
>opinion about the origin of the TH spellings in a moment. Let me first
>note that the Old English word for a Goth was Gota (pl. Gotan), an
>n-stem is confirmed by Old Icelandic Gotna (gen. pl.) and even by
>(runic) Gothic gutani (on the ring of Pietroassa). There's no d&
>Slavic reflexes. I'm pretty certain that when a Terwing or a Griuting
>wished to call himself a Goth, he said "Guta" (Gutan- when inflected)
>rather than "Guda". I don't intend to discuss here in detail
>the oft-cited (if inevitably speculative) etymological links with
>Gotland and Götland, with the Scandinavian Gauts (Gautar = OE
>Geatas, Beowulf's countrymen), and further with the (Gothic) verbs
>giutan 'pour', us-gutnan 'flow away', since such issues don't contribute
>much to the question if *guda- = 'Goth'. If anybody on the list is
>willing to offer an opinion on these connections (we've got some experts
>on things Scandinavian, haven't we?), I'll be happy if they start a new
>thread. It's only worth noting here that the adjective meaning 'Gothic'
>was probably derived directly from the root *gut- (*gut-isk-, as in
>*gutisk-andi of early Gothic settlement in northern Poland. *Gut-
>without weak-noun inflections also appears in the compound 'Goth-folk',
>*gut-þiuda, attested in OIcel. Gotþioð> assimilated Goðþioð
>ancient historians, is likely to be the ultimate source of Gotth-oi,
>Gothi, form may have contaminated Gutones/Gotones as well.
>This is what I have to say on the Gothic question, but if you have some
>strong evidence to support *guda-, I'll be delighted to see it. Of
>course you were absolutely right about late Latin Goth- being too
>problematic to serve as a good example of TH for Germanic þ. Thanks for
>making me rethink this issue. Piotr