Re: Macro Pelasgia (long)

Rex:

>If something happened alot, it doesn't mean that a lot of things were
>happening. :-)

Hmm true but... shouldn't you have said: "...doesn't mean that alot of
things WAS happening"? Afterall, the subject is "a lot" :P

Rex:

>What I think you are saying (Glen) in a brace of recent messages:
>
>1. People from the north (Pontic to Caspian?)..these Dene Caucasian
>speakers..entered Anatolia before 25,000 kya.

No, no. God no! DeneCaucasian is from the SOUTH, from _Africa_, so it would
seem according to John's archaeological reasoning. Only the
IndoEtruscans/IndoEuropeans (circa 6,000-3,500 BCE) were from the
Pontic-Caspian (north/northeast shores of the Black Sea)! The IndoEtruscans
were in turn from the steppes to the east as part of the Steppe language
(circa 9,000 BCE). Steppe is in turn a dialect of Eurasiatic spoken in the
Fertile Crescent area circa 12,000 BCE. Eurasiatic is a dialect of
Nostratic, originating, so it seems, from Africa c. 15,000 BCE.

In the end, Nostratic is one of many dialects coming from the earlier
DeneCaucasian protolanguage (c. 25,000+ BCE) via the "S-Group". Both the
T-Group branch and the slightly later emerging S-Group dialects should stem
from Africa 25,000+ BCE. John implies 30-40,000 BCE and I suppose I should
use this date from now on for lack of anything better.

>2. In place Semitic influences were mixed with this intrusion.
>3. Eventually, the Semitic influences were all but 'overpowered'...
>...or "timed out"...nearly erased.

IndoEtruscan (c.4500 BCE) began to spread out from the north shores of the
Black Sea, producing Tyrrhenian dialects that erased previous Semitish
languages from the "agricultural spread" in eastern Europe. Germanic and
Celtic later erased the rest of these Semitish languages in western Europe.

>4. The oldest IE Branch is Anatolian, but Anatolia is not the >origin of
>IE

Yes. The northern/northeastern coast of the Black Sea is the origin. They
traded with Semitic and Kartvelian speakers to the south (across the Black
Sea) and eventually with the Finno-Ugric to the north. It would titulate me
to no end if I could find some evidence of xenolinguistic influence during
the IndoEtruscan era (c.6,000-4500 BCE). Bomhard looks to possible ancient
NWC influence. Unfortunately, I find it hard to determine whether some of
the more likely connections could have been recent loans (IE-NWC) or truely
occuring earlier up to 9,000 BCE. Though, I doubt that his proposal of IE
*genu being a loan is sound (cf. Circassian *k?an@ "knucklebone") since we
can also connect this with IE *gen- "give birth" (cf Uralic *kan-ta "to
bear, carry") along with dual *-u. But I digress now.

>5. PIE and Etruscan are very closely related.

Yes. Having seperated a thousand years before the split of IE into its own
dialects.

>6. But...Etruscan differs enough to be separate.

Yes.

>7. Etruscan can't be IE, unless you extend IE back before 4,500 BCE

Yes. The date is the time of a distinct _spread_. The dialectal fracture
could have occured earlier.

>8. Etruscan is linked to Lemnian, a close sister language.

Definitely.

>9. Etrusco-Lemnian (branch) sprang from a linguistic and/or physical
>migration from the point of origin to Balkans c4500BCE

Both linguistic and physical migration, yes.

>10. Anatolian (same general source) follows in two waves into Anat.
>11. First Anat. wave was Lycos-Lydian
>12. Second Anat. wave was Luwian Hittite

At least two, yes.

>13. IE exists at 3500 BCE

Well, not quite. The remainder of IE existed in the area of the
Pontic-Caspian c.3500 BCE. The IE dialects could have fragmented before
then. This is the date of a _spread_ of IE dialects out from the area.

>14. Greece is Tyrrhenian/Semitic at c3000 BCE, and since C6K BCE

Not quite. Semitic, since c6000 BCE, yes (advent of agriculture).
Tyrrhenian/Semitic by c3000 BCE.

>15. Tyrrhenian could be Pelasgic

Could be, at least in part, yes. I'm no expert. This is up to others to
determine.

>16. Tyrrhenian as language group includes: Lemnan,Etruscan, Rhaetian

Yes, unless there are other dialects I missed.

>17. Etrusco-Lemnian must be Baltic centered to get to Lemnos and >Italy.

No, _Balkans_. But I'm rethinking the idea and considering a combination of
land and sea movement of Tyrrhenian languages.

>*. Explain 7? Why?

I already have in previous posts. Seperate borrowings of Semitic loanwords,
complete lack of *egoh "I", only a rare use of nominative *-s, no
grammatical gender such as animate/inanimate, possible initial accent, no
ablaut, use of -ce/-che as past _perfective_ (cf. Uralic *-ka, non-past
_perfective_ < Steppe *-ki [perfective]), etc. Care for more thrashing?

>Discussion:
>1. You don't need the Baltic fulcrum if Etruscan was primarily >"boated"
>into Italy from the Aegean.

The "Baltics" were never mentioned but I will consider some sea involvement
of the Tyrrhenians.

>2. [...] If Tyrrhenian center was Italy, It could have influenced
>Etruscan after movement, and contribute to any difference between it >and
>Lemnian.

Huh? Etruscan comes from Tyrrhenian. They aren't seperate.

>3. Rhaetian is generally considered to be Romance, derived from a >pocket
>of legionnaires stranded and not completely assimilated by >the locals.

Sure you don't mean Romanian? :P I can't verify your claim since I have no
references immediately before me...

>4. Lemnian got to Lemnos by boat from Anatolia. If Ballard and crew >are
>right, there was no waterway connection between the Black sea >and Aegean
>prior to c5500 BCE. There could have been significant >non-nautical
>exchange between The Eastern Danube area and Anatolia >from there back to
>the full extent of your 25,000 kya scenario,

Balkans 25,000 BCE?? Could be either Dene-Cacausian or some other
hypothetical DeneAsiatic dialect (DeneCaucasian and MacroAsiatic ->
Austronesian, MonKhmer, Tai, HmongMien, Australian, Ainu, Amerind). You've
misunderstood that I mean: DC is in _Africa_ c.25,000 BCE. Dene-Asiatic
dialects, which would correlate with John's first migration out of Africa,
could have been partly in the Balkans at that time as well as spreading well
into Asia.

Closer to present, in 5500 BCE, we'd probably be seeing an interaction of
Anatolian Semitish and Balkan Caucasic dialects. The waterway "burst" around
then, yes, and flooded into the Black Sea causing its voluptuous present
shape, especially affecting the line of the _east_ coast I believe. The
IndoEtruscan, Pre-Kartvelian, NWC and NEC speakers would know of this event,
along with the Semitish and Caucasic speakers near the mouth of the
waterway.

>My counters to your Speculation by point number above:
>7. Etruscan can stem from intrusive IE (possibly conceding down to >PIE)
>altered by up to 2,500 years of local Aegean influence before >the move to
>Italy, and 2 to 4 centuries of Italian influence after >the move.

I severely doubt. Any particular evidence for this masala you speak of?
Certainly there are obvious Latin loans like /nefs'/ "nephew" (Latin
/nepos/) but this is to be expected regardless of Etruscan's origins. There
are also Hellenic loans because of sea trading no doubt. The extensive
points I made above that demonstrate the non-IE (but related) character of
Etruscan are still outweighing your hypothesis.

>9. Etruscan and Lemnian are sister variants from the same
> >Anatolian-Aegean origin,

Yes, Tyrrhenian. Numbers 10-12, 14 don't sound contradictory to me. Number
17 is irrelevant due to the confusion of "Baltic" and "Balkan" (Could I have
mistyped the word?)

Rex:

>It may have branched off of "IE Central" well before the arm that
>would move to the Indus.

Sounds good but my knowledge of the archaeology is not developed.

- gLeN

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