Re: Carniola et al.

From: Alexander Stolbov
Message: 1220
Date: 2000-01-28

[Piotr]:
One popular story is that the Veneti used to establish settlements in central Europe as far north as the Baltic, possibly in order to control the amber trade (they also had a reputation as horse dealers). It is certainly true that the Mediterranean end of the Amber Road was at Aquileia (such a famous centre of trade between northern and southern Europe in Roman times that it earned the name "Second Rome"), in the land of the historical Veneti; it's also true that the archaeological cultures of the upper Elbe and the Oder basins, as well as the southern coast of the Baltic (in the Hallstatt period) show features which link them to northern Italy (e.g. house-shaped and "facial" funerary urns like those known from Etruria). Ptolemy's Ouenedikos kolpos (Wenedic Bay) is generally identified with the Bay of Gdansk. With something like *Wenetoi as a starting point it's easy to arrive at Jordanes's 6th c. Uenethi/Venethae (apparently synonymous with his Sclaveni 'Slavs') or mediaeval German Winidi, Wenedi, Winadi '(Western) Slavs'. The name doesn't seem to have been applied by any Slavic tribe to themselves; nor does it have a Slavic etymology (while its connection with PIE *wen-e- 'to love' seems evident), Perhaps the Germani transferred the name of the Veneti, their erstwhile neighbours in Central Europe, to the Slavs who replaced them.
 

 
There is a hypothesis by Victor V. Martynov concerning the Slavic glottogenesis ("Yazyk v prostransyve i vremeni" Moscow, 1983). He claims that the Proto-Slavic language is actualy a West-Baltic language altered by 2 mighty influences: Italic one in the 12th-9th cent.BC and East-Iranian (actually Scythian) one in the 6th-5th cent.BC (+ contacts with Germanic and Celtic tribes in 5th-3rd cent.BC, but these are not very important). In other words Proto-Slavic consists of Baltic, Italic and Iranian ingredients like English consists of Anglo-Saxon and Old-French ingredients.
 
In the context of Venedi/Wends problem the most interesting for us is the first stage of the Slavic glottogenesis: interaction of the West-Baltic substratum with the Italic superstratum. Martynov stresses that he uses the term "Italic" conventionally, it could be any West-IE language of that epoque (including Venetic). He believes that Lausitz (Luzhitskaya) culture represents the result of this interaction.
 
Martynov gives the list of pairs of Slavic words which reflects the appearance of the "Italic" ingredient . First word from every pair gives the Balto-Slavic variant (all of them have strong Baltic parallels + sometimes other IE correspondencies), every second word gives the synonymous Italic variant (they have only the precise Italic parallel + maybe other West-IE but not East-IE correspondencies, i.e. they can't belong to the common Balto-Slavic heritage).
 
' - soft sign
" - hard sign
 
Meaning
 
Balto-Slavic word
 
Slavic word from the "Italic" source
Latin (Italic) word
 
Child
bern" det" fetus
Muzzle
b"rna rydlo rostrum - rodere
Pig
cula svinja sus
Right (direction)
desn" prav" pravus [inversion]
Bull
govedo byk" (bos)
Goos
gos' goser' (h)anser
Pasture
g"nati pasti pasco
Pigeon
g"rdlica golob' columbus
Throat
g"rdlo gl"t" glutire
Good season, summer
jara leto laetus
Lamb
jar" agn" agnus
Needle
(j)edla j'g"la jugum
Lake
jezero loky lacus
Horse
komon' kobyla cabo
Hoe
kopac' motyka *mattuca [vulg.Lat.]
Corner
kot" og"l" angulus
Left
kriv" lev" laevus
Thigh
k"lk" bedro (bedrom)
Swan
k"lp' olbod' albundus [vulg.Lat.]
Hammer
kyj' molt" (maltos)
Swamp
luza bolto (balta)
Moon
mesec' luna luna (louksna)
Small
mez" mal" malus
Flour
moka bors'no farina
We
my ny nos
You (pl.)
*ji vy vos
Ram
ov'n" baran" (bero) ?
Weave
peti plesti (plekto)
Finger
p'rst" pal'c' (polikis)
Pitch
smola p'k"l" pix, picis
Pitchfork
soxa vidla (*uidla)
Old
star" mator" maturus
Guest
svat" gost' hostis
Axe
tesla sekyra securis
Marry
voditi snubiti nubo (snoufo)
Earth
zemja t'lo tellus
Stove
z'd" g"rn" furnus
 
 
If the hypothesis presented is plausible (I can't estimate this) we can suppose that it was Venetic ethnos who became the superstratum for future Slavs. Then Venedi and Wends were the same words for the same people (I mean the Wends' elite).
 
There were another, more important consequence: the West-Baltic languages are genetically closer to Slavic than to East-Baltic. No Slavic group, only West-Baltic (with the Slavic subgroup) and East-Baltic ("unspoiled Baltic")?
 
Alexander