Re: A SinoTibetan-Vasconic Comparison: A very, very, very, very len

From: Glen Gordon
Message: 1201
Date: 2000-01-28

Guillaume wekWt:
>Well, AC had many clusters in mr-, like maengH < a/mrangs "older
>brother". There is no data I know that would justify an mr- initial >for
>a/brat.

Alright, I think what you're really asking is: "How can a DeneCaucasian *mr-
become both SinoTibetan *br- AND *mr-?" Is that right? The difference
between the Dene-Caucasian words *mnrit "eight" and *m-hutL "eye" should be
clear by how I write them - One has a prefix and the other doesn't. Another
difference between the two (and this is hard to display in email form) is
that the *m- prefix is syllabic and not part of the next syllable. The term
*m-hutL therefore is two syllables with a root *-hutL. The term *mnrit has
non-syllabic *m-, has no affix and is complete in itself as a full word.

So... the forms with *mr- in SinoTibetan lgs are ancient, caused by
appending the word class prefix *m- (a/mrangs, Burmese mrang, etc). Now, AC
brat might have been viewed by its speakers as b-rat with a newly analysed
prefix b- but the original situation is not the case and the change of *mVr-
to *br- is more ancient than SinoTibetan itself.

John dicet:
>I too was under the impression that Austronesian, Mon Khymer and
>possibly the Daic family show more connections with each other than
>with Sino Tibetan.

Thanks, John, maybe we should put it to a vote. :)

Piotre mluvil/et (or however you conjugate Polish verbs):
>... I'm a bit surprised at your references to popular sources like >the
>Encyclopaedia Britannica or The Atlas of Languages

It may very well be true that my info as a whole is somewhat outdated being
that I live in Winnipeg, Canada (a city known for its economic woes and
arson). We often have the last of everything (books, DVD, I don't think we
even have anything faster than a T3 in this hictown and I'm just upgraded to
a K56 modem!!!). So I can't expect to be caught up on the latest of
anything. It becomes hard to have "appropriately high" standards for
references when all of them you are in contact with feed the same (perhaps
outdated) information. I'm currently considering a rapid exodus to Toronto
in order to fill my need for the many other missing things in this town
besides lack of informational resources (like lack of money, opportunity,
happiness, competent education, surrounding positivity, nightlife, nice
weather, new buildings, political sanity, people who don't quote the Bible
in regular conversations...) Get me outta here!!! I accept Visa, Mastercard
and money orders.

BTW, this *mata reconstruction is of an Otto Dempwolff and thus could be
outdated. I will apologize for my agressive atheism (We all have to be
careful on the net afterall). But then I did say I am a jerk so maybe I
shouldn't apologize and ruin my reputation :)

Back to my updated idea of:
DeneCaucasian Austric
eye *m-hutL *m-hutL *m-at
we *tLu *tLu *ta

So accepting an AN *matsa for granted, I also have been thinking about the
"eye" correspondance between DC and the Asian languages.
It is possible that the Austric or AA form or what-ever-you-will, is in fact
*m-at instead of *m-ata, from the earlier *m-hutL. Thus Austronesian *matsa
and KamThai *taa added a syllable in order to fight a monosyllabic CVC word
in contrast to the conservative MonKhmer. It happened in Uralic and I don't
recall any CVC words in AN... hmmm.

This interpretation would mean that KamThai (-Dai, Dadic, whatever) is more
closely related to AN (because of its preservation of a second syllable that
might not have existed previous) followed by a more remote relationship with
MonKhmer, which would then have preserved the original syllable structure
with DC. It may also explain the AN *-ts- (from *-t). The interpretation
would also mean that any further correspondances I supply must show a same
addition of final vowel due to this syllabic constraint. More fast food for
thought.

Guillaume:
>First of all, I would like to apologize. I said MC khu luw could be
>reconstructed as a/k-lu. This is not true, [...]
>J'ai �t� un peu vite en besogne.

Thanks for the update. You're turning out to be very informative despite
your scary direct Chinese-AN relationship idea. C'est malheureux que votre
visite en Besogne a �t� courte. Donnez-moi un coup de poste quand vous y
�tes la prochaine fois et prennez des photos cette fois-ci, voyons! :P

I can't find the Burushaski link in my bookmark file. It was accidentally
erased a while back after right after I had found that PDF. Hmm, I'll find
the link but in the mean time I'll send you the file, Guillaume. Anyone
else?

Guillaume:
>AA = austroasiatic. It is the usual name for this family. Mon khmer >+
>Munda languages.

So... AustroAsiatic would then be a subset of a more theoretical Austric?
The way you describe AA, it and Austric don't sound mutually exclusive,
rather AA would simply be less long-range.

- gLeN








______________________________________________________